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malibumentor
Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 354
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#41 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 01:33
Kudos guys,
This is one of the most informed and intelligent discussions
of one of these ebook package/ Bizop programs I have
yet seen.
People who read this thread will be very much educated.
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ginasands
Forums Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
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#42 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 04:43
netresult
Member
I am a writer and I could not have made the point better. Excellent overview of these money juggling programs. It is sad but true.
Most of the New People on the Internet haven't had the experiences that obviously you have. But just pull back the covers a litte and ask yourself whether you are selling products or the "money". You could NEVER make $1,000 a sale selling the products.
No rational person would purchase a gadzillion ebooks that you can get online for free or .99 on ebay for $1,000. If they would I have a bridge for them. so you are Only selling the promise of the 999.00
payday.. which unfortunately, they don't get unless they do three sales.
Look at this site: compare it to EDC Gold Collection
Go check some of the product on ebay and see how really low cost the products are. It is a shame becauseI would like to believe.
The statistics are that most network marketers, et al make at the most 3 sales before their money and their hope is drained by all the rah! rah! it is about this time that they realize they have made a mistake.
Then they call their local sheriff or the DA and the house of cards start to fall down.
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RayvinAndRob
Forums Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 195
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#43 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 10:35
Right. And now it makes sense why R2R offers you the option of
a) paying $49.95 per month for a replicated website and a back office full of marketing goodies, or
b) paying a one-time $300 fee for the same.
HELLO!
Who's going to want to spend $50 per month, month after month, when you can get away with paying $300 up front for the first 6 months' use and NEVER HAVE TO PAY another cent thereafter?
Only a sucker. That's who. And I HATE that word, 'SUCKER.' I don't like calling people names. It's not nice.
However, think about it.
And furthermore, as if that incentive wasn't good enough to get you to dish out $300 up front, the company throws in a little deal for you, too. If you pay the one-time fee of $300, then you have to pass up ONLY your first two sales to your sponsor. If, on the other hand, you choose to pay the monthly fee of $49.95, then you have to pass up your first four.
HELLO AGAIN!!
Now ask yourself why. WHY on the Goddess' good green earth would R2R make it so glaringly apparent that it is a more reasonable and cost effective decision to choose to pay the one-time fee of $300?
The short answer is because R2R doesn't expect to last for a very long time. It's in for the short term guys. On the surface, it appears like a beautiful flower that will root itself into the business soil of America but, at bottom, it's a weed that will never find root and which will die after one season of wreaking havoc in the garden.
What's worse is it will come back again next season, transformed and in a new guise.
Now since the company doesn't expect to live for more than one season, it makes excellent business sense to collect as much money up front as it can, doesn't it. Hence, the $300 one-time user fee.
P.S. Apparently -- if my friend is correct about the American 50% rule thingy I mentioned in one of my posts above (would someone verify that for us, please and thank you?) -- the feds can go after the independent distributors who accepted money for the sale of the $999 e-books. If they go after YOU, you'd better have evidence to show them that you are retailing your product to at least half or 50% of your clientel. In other words, for your first two sales, one MUST buy the product ONLY for the sake of the product; only one of the two can buy the product AND sign up for the business. Otherwise you'll be in some serious doo-doo!
I am here only to be truly helpful.
Rob Nyte
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Power_Advisor27
Forums Member
Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 62
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#44 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 11:53
Actually, there are several businesses that offer the option for members to pay a one time fee instead of a monthly fee. That doesn't mean that the business doesn't expect to be around for long. That just means they're offering an option. And actually, it's more to benefit the members, as the company comes out worse if everyone purchases the lifetime membership. It's amazing how much some folks try to read into something, and twist it to fit their ideas. I am not trying to be rude, but what you are saying is only a conjecture, and not an informed one. Unless you've spoken with Brian, the CEO, and he has admitted this, then there is no truth to what you are saying, only your feelings about the situation.
Roadmap to Riches has diversified their business model a bit, so that they do not operate exactly like other similar busisness opportunities. Again, though you try to make it seem as though they are doing this only to get money out of members because they don't expect to last long (of which you have no proof), this is simply to set themselves apart from other opportunities using the 2 up comp plan.
I think that if the FTC were to open an investigation of RTR, that it would come down to individual distributors. On the whole, the company is operating above the law. Now whether individual distributors can prove that at least 50% of their sales are to end users, some distributors (those who only care for the business opportunity and not the products) will have a problem. This is why I suggest that distributors make sure they're targeting the correct markets; that is, folks who are actually interested in the personal development industry as well as entrepreneurs. It is also why I say that if more folks were viewing and working the business as they should, and focusing on promoting the products (not just the income opportunity) that they'd have nothing to worry about. As a distributor, I cannot control another person, so I cannot control whether a customer ends up wanting to join as an affiliate. But because of how I have structured my marketing, I can verify that I sold on the basis of the products at the time they were purchased. It is another reason that I encourage members to get into the products. It will be better for your business in the end.
Furthermore, I'm not sure about other distributors, but I include more with the purchase of the package for both customers and those wanting to become affiliates than just the study guides and audio courses that are provided by RTR. While it may be true that these products can be found elsewhere for cheaper prices (like with many of the other similar programs), the focus is not on individual products, but on the package. And there are bonuses which come with resell rights, so that members can create additional streams of income. For my end purchasers, the value is in the total package (including the bonus services that I offer), not just an individual product. For affiliates, the value comes in the package as well as extensive marketing training and tools that I provide them to get their businesses off the ground. Some folks seem to think only in terms of the smaller picture. However, as with many products, the best deals often come in bundles or packages, as they include things that cannot be gotten by purchasing the products on their own.
To each their own. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and no opinion is wrong or right, just an opinion. I understand this better than most, and I value and respect everyone here for putting into the discussion. But the fact of the matter is that RTR doesn't try to hide that it is a business opportunity. With that being said, one should expect that it is set up to make money for itself and its distributors. That's normally the way business works. For now, I suggest that those involved in RTR take the steps necessary to ensure they're operating ethically and within the law. The company has set up a good base model for us to thrive from. For those that don't want to be involved, that is fine, it's your choice. But please don't come onto a thread that was started to find out information about the program just to bash it and those involved in it. If we are all truly adults, then live and let live. If the FTC wants to investigate RTR, it will. And then whatever happens, happens. But name-calling and bashing are just a waste of time. It's a waste of time for the naysayers who could be making better use of themselves by focusing on something that will make them successful, and it's a waste of time for those of us who are defending our businesses, because we know that we are operating as we should be. It's also a waste of time for those using this and other forums as part of their research, when all they find are opinions and conjectures from folks not even involved in the business, and not enough fact about the business itself.
I have created a mini-site that addresses many of the concerns/ arguments that naysayers bring up in these forums. For anyone who is interested in the information, feel free to contact me. Otherwise, lets just try to keep this thread informative, meaning presenting facts and legitimate information about the program, or reviews of the products from those who have purchased and are or have used them. Opinions, bashing, name-calling and self-promotion will not help interested customers or potential affiliates. Lets all be adults and strive to keep it informative, not make it personal.
I am available any time to answer questions or concerns. No selling will come from my end, just answers to the questions, and I'll be glad to post them here for all to see.
-PA27
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Power_Advisor27
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Posts: 62
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#45 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 12:14
I would also like to comment on the pricing of products found on ebay and other auction sites, as this seems to be an issue not just with RTR, but with all of the biz opps that sell digital products.
Many have stated that the products from these opportunities can be found on ebay for ridiculously cheap prices, sometimes $1 or less. I don't know about you, but as a customer I wouldn't be interested in software selling for such a small price. Why? Not because I would question the software, but the motives of the person selling it. I would worry that it isn't a full download, that something is missing or it doesn't work. Often items sell as well (or not well) as they do because of the value that the seller puts on them. I would be turned off by a product that cheap. That doesn't mean I'd think they product was worthless, but I'd question the seller. You cannot expect many customers to see value in something priced as such.
For example (and I believe I explained this in another forum about another program), lets say I go into a home store and I'm shopping for bath towels. I come across 2 sets of towels that seem identical, but one is priced at $2 and the other at $10. Being the stickler that I am for quality, I would more than likely purchase the $10 set. Why? Because I would feel that it was of higher quality, because higher value was set on it. In my experience, cheap towels unravel at the first washing. Get the point?
Value of anything is in the eye of the beholder. You cannot call something worthless or say that it isn't worth a certain amount of money because that is just your feeling on it. I have no interest whatsoever in fly-fishing, but I wouldn't dare say that a rod isn't worth whatever price it's set at, because I wouldn't rightly know. It wouldn't have any value to me, but it would to many others. If you don't feel like RTR's product package is worth $999 to you, then express that opinion. But do not try to make your opinions true for the general public. Personal development is a booming industry right now. There are customers who are paying thousands of dollars just to hear motivational speakers. Is that worth it? Perhaps not to you, but obviously so to the person who pays the money. People are not as stupid or aren't as much of the "sucker" as some folks try to make them. Just because they're willing to pay a certain amount for a product doesn't make them suckers. They have their own reasons for doing so, which may be that the product holds that value for them.
Again, I think it's important that we try to keep our opinions out of the discussion unless they are formed from actual experience or use of the products. I'm not saying we can't express them. Free speech is alright with me. But it seems involving opinions causes more trouble than it's worth. Naysayers express their opinions by brutally bashing programs and those involved, and the minute we try to defend what we do, we as distributors are viewed is "bashing" anyone who feels differently. Not very productive, if you ask me....If we can (and we should be able to, because we're all mature adults, right?), we should at least try to keep our opinions neutral, and not make comments that would seem to personally attack others. I haven't seen much of that here yet, but it always comes (I have been called a scam artist, an idiot and worse just for working from home and defending what I do). The less petty we all are, the more helpful this thread will be to others and the easier it will be to accept different opinions.
-PA27
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RayvinAndRob
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 195
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#46 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 13:59
Alrighty then.
If somebody wants to buy a PACKAGE of stuff they could get elsewhere for free or for much cheaper, then that's their right. Who are we to judge them.
Would you kindly list the names of the e-books and CDs in the package here please? That way someone could look for them on the internet and see for him or herself how much to pay for them.
If it turns out that the better deal is to buy the package from R2R, then so be it.
P.S. -- I said the 50% rule still has to be verified. Meaning I don't know about that. It may or may not mean the following:
a) half your clientel must purchase your product for the sake of the product and not because of the business opportunity; or
b) half your PRODUCT has to be sold to the enduser.
Either way, the feds will want evidence.
Rob Nyte
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Bigrich
Forums Member
Joined: 1 Jun 2007
Posts: 115
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#47 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 16:58
one other thing,, Chris' money came from edc and he uses the fromer pics., and cars etc in his new venture/website..
Also most that really do good don't use replicated sites etc, and are Very litterate in the computer and the internet. also they have alot of time to spend making/marketing themselves in the begining so later they don't spend the time on the work but simply go to auto pilot. I have studied HOW the top earners in any program got there and it was not using the Tools that you are given in the program.
You must find your"niche" as they say.. weather it be Craigs List, Backpage, Solo's, ezines., PPC, Blogs, Forums,,,,etc...
It is not really about the program, tools, etc. It is about YOU,, how do you come off,, do you really Work at it, do you Believe in it, are you Serious,,, There is no get rich quick without the work that goes into it..
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jseses
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 69
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#48 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 19:28
R2R is very close to being like PAS for offering the money deals for really nothing in return. With enough complaints it will be shut down. Research a bit more. The $49.95 deal or even the $300 deal look exactly like that.
Also, why would anyone payout $999 and then pass up 2 sales to their sponsor when they could just pay $300 and pass up 2 sales to their sponsor? Save $699
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SirThomas
Forums Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 60
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#49 · Posted: 27 Jul 2007 21:57
I thought $300 was a one time fee instead of $49.95/mo for hosting
not for becoming a rep...
If you don't buy the product for $999 you have to pass your first 4 sales. If you buy the product, you only pass 2 first sales.
$300 fee or $49.95/mo has nothing to do with it.
To become a rep you have to pay $49.95 once and then either
$300 for hosting or $49.95/mo
It's just a coincidence with this $49.95... I think.
Thomas
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Thomas
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Bigrich
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Joined: 1 Jun 2007
Posts: 115
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#50 · Posted: 28 Jul 2007 01:38
Funny I had a call from a former R2R tonight, said he was thinking of joining edc but wanted to talk personally with some one as the hype he got from his R2R sponsor was just that,, hype.. no help
and he spent most of all he had to advertise ineffectively because he wasn't ppointed in the right directions...
true there is good sponsors and not so good.
he has to think about joining another opp. as he feels burned at this point. course doesn't look like he stayed to long to give it achance either.
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Power_Advisor27
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Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 62
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#51 · Posted: 28 Jul 2007 13:02
As far as RTR's affiliate options, they are just that...options. No one is forced to pay the $350. No one is forced to by the product if they'd just rather be an affiliate, and no one who purchases the product is forced to be an affiliate.
In response to jseses's question about why a person would pay out $999 and pass up two sales when they could pay out $350 and do the same thing, it is because the person who is paying $999 is not paying for the opportunity to be an affiliate. They are paying for the product package. The person who pays $350 has not paid for the product package, and won't have access to it. They have simply paid for the lifetime use option so that they don't have to worry about monthly fees for back office maintenance and use of the websites, capture pages, etc. The person who pays either $49.95 a month or the $350 for lifetime use will not have access to the product until they pay for it. That is the reason a person would pay $999 as opposed to $350.
The options to join without purchasing are strictly for those who'd rather just market the program as affiliates. This is not like PAS. They are paying for the tools within the back office, and the use of the replicated websites, lead capture pages and videos. When an affiliate joins, it's their choice how the proceed with marketing the program. They can sell strictly to end users if they'd like, or they can do a combination or selling to customers and referring new affiliates. This works the same as with affiliate programs from large companies like Amazon or Calendars.com. The only difference is that for RTR's affiliate program, there is a monthly fee because there are marketing tools provided. With affiliate programs from companies like Amazon, they are free because they do not provide these tools and websites for marketing the products. With PAS, I do not believe there were actual products. With the strictly affiliate side of RTR, the affiliate is paying for actual websites and tools they can use to promote the business, as well as use of the back office to manage sales. But make no mistake, RTR does sell product that can be useful to end users as well as affiliates.
As far as the products, they are plainly listed on the RTR corporate website, as well as my own site. Anyone is welcome to visit and take a look, as RTR makes no attempts to hide or be vague about its products. There are photos and descriptions of every single product on the website, including the bonus products. As well, I give full descriptions of the other services/tools I provide (mentioned in my above posts) along with the product package purchase on my personal website. Anyone with questions about these products are welcome to post them here or contact me.
TheGuild, I believe that the 50% rule does in fact exist as a guidline for home based businesses to operate by. I had located the site at one time. As soon as I find it, I'll let you guys know. I don't think I can post the site, but I'll let you know to contact me if you're interested in researching it for yourselves. I'm sure if the FTC ever finds the need to investigate RTR, it will want evidence that distributors are operating within the home business guidelines they've set. Again, if distributors are taking the necessary steps to target the correct markets and focus on the products as well as the income opportunity, they will have nothing to worry about. By correct markets, I mean targeting those you feel would benefit most from the products being sold. I have started promoting to customers who have expressed interest in personal development products, as well as business owners and entrepreneurs who I think can benefit from learning about positive thinking, concentration and goal-setting. While some of the entrepreneurs may become interested in promoting this package as well, I believe that most of the folks I'm talking with now about the product package will just be customers. It's also not a bad idea for distributors to tally the sales they've made, and make comparisons. That way, they'll have research to show to the FTC, as well as lists of names for end users vs. affiliate referrals should an investigation ever come about.
And in reference to Chris Campbell and other top earners, I say this; if anyone is curious and thinking of possibly joining RTR, be sure to research your potential sponsor BEFORE you join. I see the same thing with all programs. Someone hypes themselves up, and instead of researching the sponsor as much as the program (which is what should be going on) folks buy into the hype and follow blindly. While it is quite possible to succeed in this program without a good sponsor, it certainly does help to have a good one (eliminates a lot of the trial-and-error process that new members go through in the first month). Don't ever be afraid to ask questions of the person you're thinking about joining with. And above all, use your common sense. If you can't get in touch with the person, if you're not receiving answers back from emails or phone calls, it could be that the person is too busy to be the kind of sponsor you'll need or they simply don't value good customer service. Either way, I suggest steering clear of such people. Also, check that the would-be sponsor has a plan set in place to help you from day 1, and a training schedule/regimen to go by. Simply telling a member to go out and pay for advertising isn't good sponsorship. Make sure that the would-be sponsor knows enough about marketing to pass on techniques to you, and that they're willing to do so. To me, the sponsor should be scrutinized just as carefully as the company is.
I generally try not to speak out against people because how they run their business isn't any of my business. However, I have not had several of Chris Campbell's and other top earners' team members coming to me for advice on how and where to market, because they're losing too much money following method of marketing, which is pouring money into Google Adwords and solo ezine ads. While this works well for him because he's putting in anywhere from $300 to $500 a day in advertising, his team members will likely not have that kind of money. So for those being pulled in by the lure of big money "proof" and claims of training and support on his websites, I encourage you to investigate him more closely. He is not being honest on his website, as others have mentioned here. And he doesn't provide individualized training. His instructions to everyone are the same: purchase solo ads (the site he recommends was something like $197 to start) and set up an Adwords campaign. If you have the kind of budget to do well with this method, and you don't care about his ethics, then good luck to you. But if you're looking to stay away from unethical sponsors who use hype and lies to draw folks in, and you're looking for 1-on-1 training that actually covers how and where to market, who to market to, and why market to them, then I suggest you move on from Chris Campbell.
I don't say this to be rude to him, but it's crazy the number of his team members who are falling for his displays on his website without researching what he's all about, and then they become upset that they're not earning. I even had someone contact me saying that they think they've been scammed by RTR because they haven't made any money yet. First off, the programs only been in existence for just over a month. Unfortunately for those who want instant gratification, business doesn't work that way. While some folks have managed to get a successful business off the ground with RTR in this amount of time, this won't happen for everyone. Realize that there are factors involved that make every distributor's situation different. But the biggest problem is that folks are not blaming and reporting the wrong-doing sponsors, they're blaming the company, which isn't right. A sponsor should provide what they've advertised, and if they don't should be reported. The company won't know there's a problem until the issue is brought to them.
The best advice I can give for any who are interested in the program: do as much research on the potential sponsor as on the program itself. It is that person you'll be paying if you purchase the product, and that person you'll be joined to if you decide to promote the product. They are responsible for their own actions, not the company. Ask questions, and make sure you're comfortable with the answers. If you're not, then don't join with that person. If you suspect someone is operating unethically, then report them to the company. I believe this will eliminate many of the issues with affiliates not receiving proper marketing training.
-PA27
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Power_Advisor27
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#52 · Posted: 28 Jul 2007 13:17 · Edited by: Power_Advisor27
There is one more thing that I wanted to address, that was brought up on another similar forum. Someone who is against RTR and similar programs posted a warning that no one should have to pay to make money or get paid. They said that any program forcing a person to do this is illegal and a pyramid scheme.
In reality, we all pay to get paid, whether it's a home based business or a workforce job. The difference is that with most home based businesses, you pay upfront, whereas with workforce jobs you pay over time.
When you have a job, the government taxes the money that you earn. Those who don't have the ability to be taxed (either don't have an ss# or tax id of some kind) aren't allowed to work. And the saddest part is that with jobs, the more you make, the higher your taxes are. Not to mention, many folks still have to pay the government at the end of the tax year, despite the fact that they've had taxes taken out all year.
This has always seemed a bit unfair to me, particularly because the taxes in our state are quite high. There was a point in my life when I worked 2 full-time jobs at once. I only made close to $30,000 for the whole year (again, very sad after working 80 hours a week every week), but at the end of the year, I owed more than $1000. That was the point where I really started looking into home based businesses. It is true that entrepreneurs should do what's necessary to report their home business earning at the end of the year. But since working from home, I've never had another issue like I had with paying taxes from a job. And most of what I purchase and do now is tax deductible (because I operate from home). And with this business, they don't increase the amount I owe them when the amount I earn increases. I cannot say the same for the government. In the end, I've come out much better working from home than working a job. And it's all done legally.
Even with most free-to-join affiliate programs, the company asks for your ss# or tax id so that taxes can be taken out of whatever commissions you earn.
Not only this, but businesses have to pay the government in order to register themselves, and then they have to pay taxes not only on the income earned, but also on their employees, property, etc.
So, if paying to get paid is illegal, then consider any workforce job that taxes you in the same category. Or better yet, lets use common sense and realize that this is what has to be done, no matter how you make your money. It takes money to make money. Simple as that. Even winning the lottery isn't free....
-PA27
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hugecash
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 4
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#53 · Posted: 28 Jul 2007 17:23
Chris Campbell has already made $14,000 in one day using RTR...
I think that is much better then what he was making in EDC GOLD.
This is MUCH BETTER. I was with Chris in EDC GOLD, and RTR is a much better business. I just got started and I already love this...
Anton
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jseses
Forums Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 69
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#54 · Posted: 28 Jul 2007 18:07
Quoting: Power_Advisor27 In response to jseses's question about why a person would pay out $999 and pass up two sales when they could pay out $350 and do the same thing, it is because the person who is paying $999 is not paying for the opportunity to be an affiliate. They are paying for the product package. The person who pays $350 has not paid for the product package, and won't have access to it. They have simply paid for the lifetime use option so that they don't have to worry about monthly fees for back office maintenance and use of the websites, capture pages, etc. The person who pays either $49.95 a month or the $350 for lifetime use will not have access to the product until they pay for it. That is the reason a person would pay $999 as opposed to $350.
That is what makes it exactly like PAS. That is also the reason why the FEDS will shut it down. It is the reason why PAS was shut down. That is also the reason why I didn't join.
Good luck to you all.
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Power_Advisor27
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Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 62
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#55 · Posted: 28 Jul 2007 20:12 · Edited by: Power_Advisor27
I'm not sure where you're coming from jseses, but RTR doesn't seem like PAS to me. It's about as much like PAS as EDC Gold, and EDC definitely isn't a pyramid scheme. The problem with PAS way back when was that there really wasn't a distinguishable product. I believe that changed later on down the line, along with some other aspects of the company. Seems like they launched a new version of the business with its new product line around the same time that EDC was launched. Last I heard it was under investigation, but I found no actual detailed information about Prosperity International and its current status.
PAS worked mainly from selling memberships to make money, not a product. RTR has an actual product that is being sold, and it isn't just "members" or affiliates who can purchase or benefit from it. Because of the product industry (personal development), RTR has the ability to reach out to a wider crowd and distributors have the opportunity to sell only to interested consumers and still earn a significant income. I can sell the success center I've put together for RTR only to customers who are interested in personal growth and development, not once looking to recruit another affiliate, and still earn a very substantial income. This couldn't be done with PAS, as those who "joined" and paid were only looking to earn money, and the only way they could do that was by selling a "membership" to other folks who wanted to earn money, and so on and so on, causing it to be considered a pyramid scheme.
If the guidelines set by the FTC are in fact true, then RTR is in compliance. The company has a product that can be sold to end users. As a distributor, I'm not required to recruit others just to earn. I can simply sell the product and let that be that. And as I said before, if distributors are promoting their businesses in the correct way, then they will have no problem proving that a certain amount or average of sales are from end users. PAS members could not prove this, as the only way to make money was to recruit others. This is not the case with RTR.
I am curious about something, jseses. I know that you are a member of EDC Gold. Interestingly enough, RTR is quite similar in its business model. It operates using the 2 up comp plan, it sells a product package consisting of digital products and you earn 100% commissions from the sale of the product package. This is exactly like what's done with EDC. Where RTR differs is that it offers an option for those not interested in purchasing the product but who would like to promote it. If anything, it is better to have a separation of customers and affiliates because there's no need to worry that your only customers are also affiliates. So are you saying that EDC is also exactly like PAS and will be shut down? I don't think so, judging from the valiant defense you've given for EDC on this forum (a separate topic) and other forums that I know you from. So why are you so sure that RTR will fall like PAS and not your own business?
You know that I'm also a member of EDC. I like both programs, believe in the products and have found a way for both programs to help each other build business without taking members from one or the other. I have nothing against EDC, as I'm also a satisfied customer and happy distributor. However, it seems like your last comment is based on your feelings of competition rather than fact. I don't believe you can call your statement fact with your head held high, as doing so would degrade your own business.
I have stated the facts about RTR. There will always be opposition, whether from those who've never been involved or those promoting other programs. The bottom line is that RTR's model is in compliance with the guidelines set by the FTC. It is up to distributors to uphold integrity and make sure they're not just recruiting to make more money. I personally could care less about the 2 up's (as anyone who knows me from EDC knows). I'm just happy to be selling something that can actually help folks from all walks of life, not just entrepreneurs. And I'm happy to provide training to those who do wish to create a home business with RTR.
To each their own opinions. I don't say anything to be rude, just to try and gain more understanding (and provide it as well). As for RTR and EDC, both are great programs that provide helpful products and training, in my opinion. Anyone who joins either will benefit immensely! It all comes down to which industry suits you more, whether you're just looking for helpful products or looking to get into a home based business, and what price point you're looking to invest at. Otherwise, they are equals.
-PA27
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Power_Advisor27
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Posts: 62
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#56 · Posted: 29 Jul 2007 14:48
There has a been a lot of buzz surrounding Chris Campbell. While I have no doubts that he was a helpful sponsor in the beginning, things have changed. What I say isn't meant to be mean or disrespectful to him, but only to show the truth. And the reason is because of what I've seen just in this thread, from folks who've joined with him, and followed him from EDC into his other programs.
Now that I've seen the way he works, I'm disliking Chris Campbell more and more. After the things that went on a few weeks ago (with him being terminated from EDC and the back-and-forbickering) it seems that he is still bitter and hanging onto the drama. He recently posted a comment on a blog that used to be for EDC (though the owner seems to have changed and moved on to another program as well), and he's completely bashing EDC, calling its practices unethical and stating all of the things that he feels they did to him, but not once does he mention the really rotten things he's done, and not just to the company but to his own team members. You would think that if he's having such success with RTR and his other company, he'd just move on and mind his own business. I marvel at the immaturity in people sometimes....
Here is the comment:
EDC Gold a Scam?
I was a top earner in EDC, I made $21k my first 16 days and was called a superstar in the eyes of Craig and Mike. I left due to moral and ethics, it is called sleeping at night.
1.First david Dubbs is part Owner
2. All the links that go to any kind of suggested advertising are affiliate programs that Dubbs or Craig garcia are a part of. This Bob Cefil crap Craig garcia is half owner of. No wonder he wants you to Join that stupid Promo Black Box
3. Why did my free signs up disappear out of my back office, oh yeah and the ones I called, why did they supposably join under Dubbs.
4. Dubbs top earner, he is arrogant bashing others, sending threat letters to people under him, stating he can see all the numbers in the back office and everything that is going on. Also threatening to take people to court because they said they had the Top Team.
5. The 2 owners started promoting themselves who can compete with that. They lie on the conference calls and state oh we only support our members, yeah right!!!!
6. I had $15k in chargebacks out of the $65k I made in 3 months. Why? EDC was misleading and they blamed me that I knew what was going on.
7. I feel sorry for anyone in EDC and 2 nights ago Craig announces Mike and I are not marketing EDC Gold anymore. Sounds like they want to cut bait or try and clean up the mess they made. Why the hell did all the top earners leave? heck I was making alot of money and I said I will not deal with unethical people.
8. Email me leave a number and lets talk. I joined a better program Motivational and Personal Developement Software and made 14k in 10 days. It is healthy mentally and bonafide. EDC gold their software sells on Ebay, all of it for $24.95 LOL That is the real truth.
PS. Ask me about the FTC calling me and me calling them back, it was the FTC in Washington, DC and no fake call either
I'm appalled by this, as I used to admire Chris for his (supposed) willingness to help his team and his willingness to prove his income. Now however, we're all starting to see through the hype. He states that he had $15k in chargebacks with EDC. I can only imagine that all of this was from disgruntled team members who weren't receiving the training and support they were promised by him (I know because some of the came to me for help, and others have gone to members like jseses for assistance), yet he tries to blame it on the owners. I have been in the home business circuit for a while, but never have I heard of such an issue, not from other members of EDC or RTR, nor has it ever happened to me. To me, this shows the difference in what happens to those who choose the operate honestly, as opposed to others who use hype and lies to earn their money.
I'm not usually one to speak out against others, but it's starting to get a bit ridiculous, and the worst part is that folks are still falling for the lies and hype, and then come to others for help, even after they've been warned. I strongly suggest to anyone who's considering joining RTR's affiliate program, to take a good long look at the person you'll be joining with. If you insist on joining under such people as this, be sure you're a self-starter and the kind of person who won't be needing any actual mentoring. And also be sure that you find a way to separate and brand yourself. Chris may have a big name now (which he only has thanks to the company that he's bashing), but the more folks are starting to realize how he operates, the worse his reputation will become.
Otherwise, I suggest you choose a mentor who will have the time and patience to work with you individually, and who will teach actual marketing techniques that you can use to grow your business (instead of just instructing you to go out and pay for advertising). And for those who are already on his team, find a way to separate and brand yourselves. It will do you much more good in the long run!
-PA27
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hugecash
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Joined: 12 Jul 2007
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#57 · Posted: 29 Jul 2007 16:58
I really don't find it acceptable to bash Chris Campbell like that.
Chris has by far the best training online for Roadmap To Riches. He did for EDC GOLD as well.
I am a member under him and he has lots of training calls, a capture page, etc. etc.
Do other sponsors have 3 guys you can call (Campbell, Sunderland, Klatt) a personal training page, and a capture page? The answer is no...
[b]The Plain and simple truth[b]is that Chris is 100% right about the way that Craig and Mike run their business. They DO jam the DUbbs site down your throat, they DO (not) respond to any phone calls, and worst of all they bashed other members in their personal ads. They were running Google AdWords saying "join the owners here" These guys were making about half a million dollars a MONTH on member fees, etc. etc. Why do they need more? Brian Grant of Roadmap To Riches does not do that. Chis joined another program and was then forced out by EDC. When Chris was having so much success with EDC... why not try to get a 2nd income stream?? IS that so bad? He was a WAYY better sponsor with EDC GOLD then David Dubbs, Craig, Mike, etc. anyhow.
RTR is a way better program.
Also, "finding a mentor who can train you personally" ...these guys have hundreds of people they have. They do support calls, and give out there phone numbers, etc. Every now and then you may have to call them a few times to get through, but they are ALWAYS there...You don't have to pray for a miracle to get a hold of them.
And as for his profits being from EDC GOLD... take a look at his proof page (www.the6figurementors.com/proof.html) He has a $14,000+ day with RTR...He still uses some proof from EDC...but it really doesn't matter since he has easily replicated that income already.
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jseses
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Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 69
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#58 · Posted: 29 Jul 2007 18:20
Hugecash, mate no ones bashing Chris. It's just getting annoying having his members contacting the rest of us about getting no support.
I used to get a tonne of Daves members aswell. The worst thing is when they have stories like they are unemployed and have bills overdue. They were told they would rake in cash from the first second. One lady has 3 young kids and was laid off. She's renting and doesn't have the money to pay next weeks rent. She was told about google adwords and she dumped money into that with very little response. At some point we are responsible arn't we?? If you say we arn't then there is no hope left in this world for anyone.
Ina, Yes I am in EDC. Yet what I am say is blatantly obvious. PAS was taken down because of the ability to join and make payment for nothing. By branding the $49.95 in and 4 pass up deal an affiliate program doesn't make it one. The precedents is there - PAS. You cannot assume what the FEDs will do. If the risk is there then it's there. That is what the information should be. Why are we trying to stand by something that is so blatantly obvious. We can honey coat anything and everything....it won't change the reality.
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Power_Advisor27
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Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 62
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#59 · Posted: 29 Jul 2007 20:19
My intent is not to bash him. But I do find it disturbing that so many claim he is a great mentor, following him from program to program without having gotten on a good foot in the first program, and all the while they're being told to spend money on expensive advertising that won't necessarily bring them the success the they're being promised. The truth is that few newcomers have the funds to keep up with that kind of advertising methods. And it shows when his team members seek out others to help them.
Even you have done this, Anton. You've contacted me more than once asking for help. I don't understand how his training could be the best there is if you and others of his team are contacting myself and other members for help with marketing and advertising behind his back. And it is also not true that other distributors don't provide training sites, lead capture pages, and exclusive marketing tools for their own team. I know of several mentors in this and other programs who do just that, including myself. And we are also available for our members.
It is my feeling that a good mentor should try and create a system that can be somewhat duplicated by their members. Of course, nothing can be completely duplicated, but there should be enough there that all members can benefit from, regardless of how much of an advertising budget they have. A mentor should understand and be able to teach that effective marketing consists of more than just paid advertising. It is also my belief that an ethical distributor aught not to spend their time bashing other programs and individuals, regardless of what's happened. At some point, maturity and professionalism need to win out.
I feel that distributors aught to be honest with their members and customers from the start. When distributors are dishonest, that's what gives a program a bad name. Someone who's in the spotlight, such as a top earner, really aught to take even more care when doing business. It's would be ok for him to use his proof from EDC to show that he's had success with another home business, and as long as he mentioned that it was in fact from another program. But he fails to do that. It's as if he thinks that his websites viewers are too unintelligent to notice. That right there would be insult enough for me not to want to work with him.
It isn't just Chris, though lately he's putting himself in the limelight. There are other distributors who are less than honest with potential customers. All I'm saying is that interested customers and potential affiliates really need to know what they're getting into. Otherwise, it makes the entire company look bad, not just that distributor.
I'm also a member of EDC, but that does not mean that I condone some of the things they've done. However, stooping to the level of someone who has acted unethically isn't the way to handle such situations. And EDC's leaders do not encourage unethical behavior. Personal vendettas should never go so far as this has. This is just my opinion, but if Chris Campbell is truly happier and making more money with RTR, he should be able to move on from what happened with EDC and focus on his new business. Truly successful people rarely have time for pettiness. And if his team members truly feel that they are receiving the best training out here, there shouldn't be a need to go to others for help behind Chris' back.
Again, what I've said isn't meant to be rude or disrespectful. I'm just being real. If distributors would be honest in the way they do business, companies would not get the undesirable reputations that they have, folks would know exactly what they're getting into when they purchase a product or join a program, and there would be no need to speak out about the unethical practices of others.
-PA27
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Power_Advisor27
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#60 · Posted: 29 Jul 2007 20:58 · Edited by: Power_Advisor27
jseses,
I agree that we are not bashing Chris, as I've said. And it is getting annoying that members of other teams contact us for help. I'm not annoyed at the members, but at the fact that they aren't receiving training from those who speak so highly of themselves and what they offer. And though it's annoying, I do feel responsible. That's why I've offered help, and even freely in the past. But folks started to take advantage of that generosity, which makes the situation even worse. I don't ever mind helping others, that's why I enjoy mentoring. But if these top earners were really doing such a great job of training, there wouldn't be a need for them to come to us.
Back on the topic of RTR. You stated that it was joining the program at $49.99 or $350 and passing up sales that makes RTR like PAS. You also stated that affiliates are paying for nothing. Affiliates who pay this amount aren't paying for nothing. They are paying for the use of the back office to sell the product package, and paying for their own marketing website and the other tools, such as the flash movie and lead capture pages. Those aren't products, but services. If it were completely free, then I doubt members would have anything in the way of tools to market the business with, just like with other free affiliate programs.
Though you may think I'm trying to honey coat the situation, I am simply stating what the money being paid is used for, nothing more. It would be one thing if affiliates paid $49.95 a month, and there was no back office, no product being sold by the affiliate and/or no websites or other tools being provided in exchange for that payment, but that is not the case. You are right, I cannot anticipate or dictate what the FTC will do. No one can, and that's my point. It seems useless to sit here and spread about rumors (as they're not based on fact) that the FTC will shut RTR down when you don't know that for sure yourself. The same as with EDC, RTR has a retail product that is being sold. Affiliates can sell that and earn an income without having to recruit others, the same as EDC members can with PromoBlackBox. Because none of us knows for sure what the FTC would rule in the case of RTR, and since there are currently no pending investigations or even talk of such, it seems useless and not at all helpful to talk about it. It just makes RTR look bad for no reason. The fact of the matter is that regardless of what amount is being paid in this program, there is a product or service being exchanged for it. And that's part of what the FTC looks for, based on past investigations and rulings.
I'm not sure what's caused you to change your tune, but you even valiantly defended RTR and EDC earlier on in this discussion.
Quoting: jseses Netresult, Firstly, have you EVER been in any of the programs yourself? or are you just copying and pasting things from places? Lets follow the facts: 1) Yes, the programs EDC, P2W, P2R are all similar. 2) They all offer a part package - (i) You buy a library of ebooks, software etc. (ii) There is a money making component. 3) For R2R there are two options - (i) You pay an upfront $999 and have full access to the library aswell. (ii) You pay $49.95 and no access if provided to the library. The money you pay is entirely for the replicated website and back office. You yourself mention that it's a LEGAL system and then you say it's a scam. Pick one! A contradiction in terms. A scam is when someone just runs with their money. I'll be dead clear. These businesses are 'DIRECT SALES' and there are many different ways to approach them. The problem is not with the business itself. Calling them a scam is simply being ignorant. The real problem is with the sponsors you join with.
The business hasn't changed since you made these statements. What you are saying now seems like a bit of a contradiction based on this. You said in this earlier post exactly what I've been saying to you in our little debate. You knew about the other option to join as an affiliate even then, and you defended that as well. Not once in that post did you say that you felt like the FTC wouldn't approve of this program. So were you wrong then in defending RTR and EDC (and lets keep in mind that you even said yourself that they're similar), or were you perhaps honey-coating things for EDC's sake? Has something changed so drastically since this post? It doesn't seem like it. Everything has been out in the open from the start; no new rules or options, no change in products or policies. That is why I feel that what you've been saying lately sounds more like something from a competitor's standpoint than simply looking at the program objectively.
-PA27
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