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BHp
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2008 13:03
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chuckle - i realize that i wont convince anyone on this forum  most have probably been sucessfull in mlm, and are thus, here to learn new tactics. To respond to Mike, if you have mlms in which there is no fees to be a part of it, than your odds of losing money are naturally quite low The scenario you describe is the best one - working multiple mlms which you don't pay-to-play. Sign-up fees and monthly fees are how mlm makes their money. Without sign-up fees, monthly fees (and product movement - usually not significant on a per-person basis) are how the money has to be made. So Mike, if you are working several mlms that aren't costing you anything (or at least have monthly fees that are low) and making a little extra $, I can't find anything wrong.
Here's something however, people usually FEEL ripped off because of the start up fee. However if you pay $300 to get in, and it costs $30 a month to 'play' (all business' have expenses of course), than in less than a year you have already equaled your start up cost in monthly payments. So the question is, can I make back my $660 in a year? and the answer is, not without signing up other people!
I will define failure in mlm (this is my definition of course, from the angle of it being a business) Failure is if you make less than you spend, during the course of your 'business'.
By definition then Mike, no one can fail in your mlms? If they spend nothing...even $5 a month is success! Or are there monthly fees?
Mlm wants you to look at it as owning your own business. I see it as an investment in a business. If I make more than I spend, I'm successful.
Working the system? With multiple mlms, working the system = creating a bigger downline. So, say you are Mike, who has a concience. He only signs up people he knows can benefit - and kudos for it! (In an mlm where there aren't referral bonuses - unlike most - this is not only honorable, but intelligent). The idea is that they will only sign up like-minded people as well. Again, most mlms give bonuses to the sponsor, so most of the time, this easy cash trumps morals. I wouldn't call someone who can't (or won't) "work the system" a quitter. So Mike, do your mlms have referral bonuses?
For you to be successfull in mlm, you have to sign up other people! You have to - otherwise it wouldn't be mlm.
The difference between someone who starts their own business and fails and someone who quits mlm is that the mlm quitter has in some way benefitted someone above him. The person who fails in home business hasn't contributed to a referral bonus to his sponsor. My success in my own business doen't depend on me signing up 100 people, 97 of which I KNOW will fail (lose money). In the big picture, what you say is correct - most people will simply quit - but some will realize that
1) The product they sell is no good, or overpriced
2) They can be successful, but they have to find other people to sell a product that is no good, or overpriced
Not all products are bad, mind you, but most in mlm are at least overpriced for the consumer. At least you can shop around and get something better.
No way to cover all the material here. If you have multiple mlms in which you can make more money than you spend (for each one), get a decent commission for selling a quality product at a competitive price, and the success of which doesn't require a huge downline, than kudos! Most mlms do not fit my above profile however.
If you do have these however, you can move from financial success to a higher plane - moral success!
Good luck to all, and seriously Vishal - if I'm causing too much ruckus - you can delete me - no hard feelings!
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2008 21:36
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Interesting,
You see, you have a slanted view, and I would suspect you were caught in a $300. and $30. a month deal to have such strong feelings about the pay to play deals. I agree, unless a person is above average at sales, I would not want to see them spend money for other than product or services of equal value.
I know there are many who will charge several hundred just for the opportunity to sell, and I don't usually agree with this type of program unless there is a product or service of value that you are purchasing. Many of the travel deals are structured with a few hundred dollar fee up front and $50.00 a month to have access to booking site, so again, I agree, there are many structured with an up front fee.
I look for value for the most part, for I too do not want to pay inflated prices for products or services which may or may not be worth it. You cannot say all MLM products are not worth the price, but again, I will agree, many are over priced. Quality is another issue, and for the most part, I see most MLM marketed products as a higher quality than at Walmart, but again, not all.
I have no problem with someone who hates MLM, I did too until I learned what makes a good company, and there are many very good companies who happen to use MLM, so my issue is when someone tries to label all MLM's as a pay to play pyramid, for this serves no one as there are always two sides to debate.
There are hundreds of no fee MLM's which good value products and services, you just have to look a little harder. So tell us, which MLM burned you out on industry? Just curious, for I research them all and I know which ones are less than best for the newbies to home business arena. As stated, I work serveral, and most are free to join, and require no purchase, plus offer verifiable value, or are unique or exclusive products or services. This gives the newbie the best opportunity to succeed and learn to earn.
Once a person see some success, then I work with them on my strategies of being diversified, so not to overload the newbie or hype them up with the usual get rich quick nonsense. MLM is hard work, but it is best to start with no risk to see if you are cut out to succeed in MLM, so I do agree with you on one point, pay to play is not for the newbies, but the freebies allow you to earn while you learn, and that I find works best which in my experience skews the 97% failure rate you seem to believe as real.
Success to all, Mike
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mrslalas
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2008 13:09
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YEP. I wouldn't blame you. I have been in so many and I do not see how some people are so successful in them. Maybe its because they are just gifted and so good at them. I prefer creating my own system that I am good at or some kinda of affiliate program where I can use my own blog to help market.
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kimtarr
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2008 14:26
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Being successful in a MLM depends on a lot of things. Having a good sponsor is extremely important.
Also, you need to find a business that works for you. You have to believe in what the product/service is being offered and that it adds value.
There are so many great mlm companies out there. It is so hard to choose the one that works for you and sometimes it is trial and error.
Good luck to everyone in their search!
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BHp
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2008 16:01
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Appreciate the input
I won't give you the name of the one that I was in - I should - but I'll say it was a pay to play system. It was a travel mlm - and the costs 300 and 30/mo were only slighly deflated, for example purposes. It is wrong of me to lump all mlms the same, but most (97%? ) I think there is so much negativity around those that have a pay to play system, - and even those whose pay to play is negated by "incentive purchases" or a requirement to move a certain amount of product or sign up new members to get paid.
Mike - were it that all people were like you and actually cared about their downline having success, and help people in it. I'd venture to guess that most people dont try to make their carreer out of it though - they just want some extra income.
This want of something small to do on the side is what gets people sucked into an overhyped mlm - they don't make a career out of investing in the few quality mlms there apparently are out there. (which seem to be hard to find, since a quality mlm wouldn't overhype its worth)
Think of it this way - if I'm a dog breeder and 1 out of 100 dogs I have is good natured, (and the others vicious), I, the breeder, will have a bad name, and the breed I'm promoting will have a bad reputation. People get burned by those 99% of mlms with false promises and fine print so often that it gives the whole thing a bad name. That's why I advocate that people stay away from them. There are less risky ways to invest your $$.
May the sunshine of {insert something positive} shine on you all!
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 31 Oct 2008 21:35
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Bingo,
I was going to say you were probably burned by travel deal, but did not want to offend anyone, so I can now understand why you don't like MLM, you had one of those 97% experiences, so I am sorry to hear this for it will be with you for a long time, and sadly, form your opinion of the industry for life.
I use to own a traditional travel agency, long since sold it, and I am glad I did, industry is not what it use to be. One of the reasons I sold was I saw MLM start ups pumping so called agent ID's, and I saw the handwriting on the wall. Note: I was already working within the MLM industry at same time, so I knew the value of leverage, but charging $500. for an ID card was a bit much, but I saw people pay it over and over, so I can understand your opinion since most never earned more than the burned trying.
Believe it or not, with my knowledge of MLM at the time did allow me to create leverage as I recruited outside agents, trained them, and cut them in on a 50% commission spit. I charged $120.00 for 12 hour course at the time and I sold out for every class based on referrals, non paid referrals, so yes, travel has a great appeal to many as a part time business, and this is why there are now dozens a travel deals, almost all cookie cutter cared deals.
If it wasn't for a little insight on travel industry, I may have done what many other smaller agencies have done, allow MLM to book for them. In almost every deal I have researched, this is how they are structured, some will offer training, but none are worth $500. in my opinion. Most of my outside agents booked for their family and friends, as well as their own travel, but few ever earned more than a few hundred a month, but that was OK for most, why, because I didn't hype being outside agent like the MLM deals do, so again, I understand your position better now.
Success to all, Mike
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BHp
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2008 11:24
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Mike - what you say is true of travel mlms, but from what I've read, it's also true of other mlms. I have a close friend who was sucked into some nutritional supplement mlm, which turned out to be another racket. I've read reviews of people who where suckered by all kinds of health related mlms, as well as body care products. It's sad that the majority seemingly ruin it for the reputation of the minority. However, since the likelihood of someone finding a quality mlm is so low, I still doggedly advise people against it. Gambling in Vegas is less risky then mlm. (Consumer Awareness Institute)
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2008 08:02
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Interesting,
When you say nutritional MLM, sorry, I don't know of any where you have to pay $300. to join? Yes, a purchase is almost always required to be positioned in whatever compensation plan they use, but sorry, I don't recall any which charge a pay to play fee?
As mentioned, I don't believe in front loaded programs, not matter what you are selling. Many of the original telcom deals charged $500. up front, and this was a commissionable fee, which technicially is illegal since it is nothing more than a headhunting commission, or recruiting commission in plain terms. I have been selling telcom for years, and never paid a fee to do so, so again, not all MLM's are the same.
As to better off going to casino, funny, but just like gambling, if you know the percentages and how to play whatever game you are playing, it can also be very profitable, so although I get your point, there are exceptions. I would say your 97% loser ratio would apply at casinos with newbies, but I still don't buy it for MLM, I know too many who are making a few hundred a month clear or more, and these are not losers in my opinion.
On the other hand, if you add in all the quiters, then these could well add up to 97% figure thrown about by so many. Of course we all know there are more quitters in the world than there are those who succeed. The world is full of quitters, and most will never know how close they were to succeeding, and this is the main reason the numbers are skewed.
Success to all, Mike
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BHp
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2008 09:07
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I honestly can't remember the name of the company - mmm - drawing a blank. I just know that she had a jolly laugh when we mentioned we joined our mlm  This brings up another mlm hardship - finding people who haven't been burned and/or haven't read the success rates and average earnings statements.
This was the hard part for me - I know for a fact that had I stayed with it, there was income potential, and had I believed in it (and had my belief been well founded - not just empty enthusiasm), I could've gotten a huge downline. It worked for others. The notion of travel is good enough that people will join. I just didn't want selling inflated travel and memberships on my concience. Trust me - right now, we're scraping by - and that $100 referral bonus would really help out nicely. I just don't want to be "That Guy" who people avoid because he constantly brings up his mlm. I would've had to have been "That Guy", because the product was, after all the glitter rubbed off, no good.
Just a reminder to everyone - Go Vote!! - and in relation to the thread, if you purely vote your pocketbook, vote...
McCain if you are making substantial income in your mlm, and
Obama if you aren't. Gotta spread that wealth!
Happy Super Tuesday to all!
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2008 09:50
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BHp: I honestly can't remember the name of the company - mmm - drawing a blank. I just know that she had a jolly laugh when we mentioned we joined our mlm This brings up another mlm hardship - finding people who haven't been burned and/or haven't read the success rates and average earnings statements.
Curious,
When you do, let us know, I have researched thousands of deals over the years and I can't remember a single one which cost more than $100. for start up marketing distributor kits, which is legal upper limit for such. Yes, some induce you to pruchase more product to earn higher commission rate, but at least it is selling product, not the empty dream.
Travel has always been a hot buttom for many due to the fact everyone would like to think about taking a luxury vacations, especially at the hyped up discount promoted. Sadly, there is little money in travel these days, and this is why they all charge $300. to $600. up front and a monthly fee of up to $80. for web site access for bookings. Sounds good when compared to opening a real travel agency, but in the end, more have gotten burined on travel deals than nutritionals or anything else with a real product.
Paying for the priveledge to sell for a company is not smart move for anyone just starting out in MLM in my opinion. What most underestimate is that it will take time and money to generate sales, so few who start part time ventures understand business, not just MLM, but any business. You always have to spend money to make money, so don't waste your money on purchasing air, which is typically commissioned to your sponsor, this is not the way to start your first MLM, by being in the hole a few hundred dollars.
As most already know, you don't earn a lot of money when you get started, so newbies should not be paying large fees to join an MLM in my opinion. The professional salesperson can succeed in these programs, but since 97% are not sales people, they will not fair well in a high up front cost MLM deal. So again, that percentage is due to quitters more than anything else. If one was to track those who joined a no cost MLM, and then qualified each who worked it for a full year, even if passively or part time, and did not quit, I would bet the success ration is better than 50% for this is how I track my team. Take away the quitters and you will see a much higher success rate.
Success to all, Mike
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BHp
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2008 13:59
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I'll ask her how much the start up fees/monthly fees were next time I see her. I think one of her beefs with it was in fact that she had to purchase the product herself. In something like that, you really have to believe in the product. She started out believing, but then realized that no one else was 1/10th as enthusiastic as she was.
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 4 Nov 2008 23:51
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Agreed,
Nutritional deals are a tough sale even if you feel you have seen or felt results personally, conveying this to others is not the easiest of tasks, especially for the newbie. No matter how excited you start out, when you don't make enough to cover your own required monthly autoship, most quit.
Success to all,
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getrich
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2008 08:55
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Hi,
I think the best way is to join an established group promoting the products. If they are already established, we can escape the scam trap. Join the groups which come on top when search for MLM or affiliate marketing. I have joined for affiliate marketing... I searched in google for the words "affilaite marketing" and the first few contained Wealthy Affiliate. I checked for scams, couldnt find any.. so joined here.. Monthly fee is moderate.. But the learning experience is much more.. really moved by the materials and the forum (for members), new ideas that made revenue to many members, a website reference, and all for free when we regsiter for the moderate amount ! Seemed like a good offer to me...
Cheers,
arun
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BHp
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2008 10:28
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Herbalife - she said that while the product was good, no one was interested.
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2008 20:08
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BHp: Herbalife - she said that while the product was good, no one was interested.
Agreed,
Herbalife is one of the long term companies in nutrition, I had actually cut my teeth on this one back in the mid 80's and did very well, but then health issues hit the news and it all collapsed, and by the time company was cleared, it was too late.
The company defended its products and won, but that hurt them and it took years to come back, but come back they did, much to my surprise, but I never bothered and chalked it up to experience. The lesson I learned was never to put all you eggs in one basket, so this was one of the most important lessons I learned with regards to MLM.
Yes, they had a front load incentive, and most who could not sell ended up with product, so this is one of the reasons I don't like pay to play MLM's, the newbies are biting off more than they can chew, and this leaves people like your friend angry and blaming everyone else but themselves. Even good products are difficult to sell if you are not a salesperson.
I have seen it all, and the sad fact is most who fail simply gave up or quit, and then it looks bad for all MLM companies, so thanks for finding out which company it was, she obviously bought in at higher level which was not mandatory, but sponsor would make more money, so I am sure she was induced into buying more than she should have, so it is understandable why she was mad.
Success to all, Mike
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BHp
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2008 16:30
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Is it something about the human condition that people just give up or quit their mlms? I am skeptical that 97 out of 100 people are quitters in the game of life. Maybe they are though. I think this is a dim view of humanity- if 97 out of 100 people don't stick with things, the graduation rate of colleges would surely reflect that? Isn't education something you have to put time, money, and effort into to achieve a payoff down the road? And yet 97 out of 100 people don't drop out of college once they start. I would venture to say that 97 out of 100 people are not good, optimistic salespersons. It takes a special person to be successful in sales. Since a successful mlm requires lots of sales, (both product and "salesman memberships"), i would expect that fail rate is due to being a lousy salesman, when you were promised easy $. Just a thought.
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 14 Nov 2008 19:55
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Interesting,
You cannot really compare MLM with college in my opinion, for you have to commit to college for at least a semester and you are paying a big price in most cases, so it is not a the same as a part time business, which for most, MLM is.
I would suspect the numbers would reflect this part time no or low investment failure rate more than anything else just because there is no commitment made, most just are hit or miss types, or worse, are misled to think they would make millions overnight. lol
Success to all, Mike
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AMoneyMagnet
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# Posted: 15 Nov 2008 17:03
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Mike,
I too broke into the business with Herbalife and lost money when Herbalife death notice headlines ran amuck. Like you said, there really are decent companies out there that aren't in business for a quick hit-n-run upfront, short-term profit. The company I'm affiliated with is one of them. I think the key to long term success is that the product offered is worth the price, standing alone on its own merits. If there's an opportunity to refer people to the product and earn extra income, that's just icing on the cake. I think the days are over of people paying $25 for a $10 product with the promise of a profit, just tell five of your friends and they tell five...
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easierway
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2008 18:45
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I would have to agree that there is so much hype in alot of MLM programs. It seems like if people don't tell you something outrageous that you will not believe that their program works. I know that there are good programs out there that are honest, and do work.
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TheChampion
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2008 02:11
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Good post Danny,
Yes, the main reason why people fail is because they try to convince or sale their business opportunity directly up front.
The problem with this is everyone is already promoting their own thing already.
Like you said, you need to help people understand how to market and how to build their businesses first.
Once they start getting results from your help, they will trust you and will want to work with you on anything that is going to make them more money.
Tim
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raaron
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2008 05:45
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I personally see the reason for failure by most people comes from the lack of knowledge and that they completely give up too easily. If people stayed consistent and had patience, then things would start to manifest and become very real.
Massive Action = Massive Results
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2008 13:58
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Agreed,
It always amazes me how many quit before they begin, and I suppose this why so many fail and why the percentages thrown about are so high. If people had to sign a contract to continue like they do with cell phone contracts for two year, I would bet the numbers of failures would drop dramatically.
Most people don't take MLM seriously, and as with any business, if you are not serious, then you shouldn't be in any business, including MLM. If every MLM mandated a 2 year commitment, I would be the industry would see better results. lol
Success to all, Mike
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fgarchinger
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2008 16:07
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Good that in Europe things runs different and it works perfect here. For sure you dont have 100% winners, as in normal life. But lot of people are successful and alot of people likes to make some extra money, especially in times of financial crises as we have now. Not everyone wants to be millionaire, some only wants to make their live.
I am looking forward how things turn out with a product, very successful in europe, starting the US market in 2009
Best regards from Austria
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Franz Garchinger
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BHp
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2008 11:41
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I see hype as an indicator of system health. Mlms, to be sucessful, largely depend on hype. Hype doesn't sell product, hype sells memberships. Quality sells product. Bottom line - mlms members are largely unsuccessful because of hype, not quality product and good commission on sales. I have been convinced that there are quality product mlms out there, but the mlm name brand has been largely tarnished by the bad majority, who use hype and emotion rather than a sound quality product.
Back to a previous point, college, while it does have a noticible drop-out rate, has a "quality product" - that is, a product that will serve you and the community well. Appreciate the input, all.
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WealthDelivered
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2008 00:51 · Edited by: WealthDelivered
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Great posts....
So true about Attraction Marketing. That is just the piece of the puzzle that so many are missing. Thank God I learned early on (well after several MLM failures) that Attraction Marketing was the difference between success and failure. It's not hard to do but it does require one to get out of their comfort zone. Do people want to do business with you becasuse of YOU or the product? Well, there is most likely a ton of people marketing that same product so prospects have to like you and see benefit to working with you.
I think a lot of people use the face and name of their mentors at first because they don't have their own success story. That could be a very costly mistake. Who do you think people will choose, you or the guy on your website making a $100,000 a month? Start learning Attraction Marketing techniques and you can teach them to your team. It makes a world of difference. If you look at my website theres nothing special about my videos but they are of myself just speaking from the heart. It's given me good results.
I know a great place to have a landing page built for cheap that you can personalize. Generic company websites in my opinion just don't work that effectively. Look at anyone making money online--they are not using the stock company website to promote themselves and their product.
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rossparker
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# Posted: 13 Dec 2008 13:53
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WARRANTIES4LESS: The lesson I learned was never to put all you eggs in one basket, so this was one of the most important lessons I learned with regards to MLM.
Yes! That is a major lesson to be learned. I have learned to have a few MLMs going because you never know what's going to happen to one of them. I was with ITV Ventures earlier this year and one year ago, if you would have asked me, I would have said it was the perfect Network Marketing company and that I would never need another. Actually, I was channeling all my time and energy into that business and doing well for a time. But Google the name if you don't know happened with them, but the short version is they completly collapsed. From that point on, I knew I would have to spread my time among 2 or 3. Right now I have 3 going and that's keeping me pretty busy. Of you people who have multiple MLMs going, how many do you have? How do you phase them?
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vibrations
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2008 04:17 · Edited by: vibrations
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hey danny! is 3% top working for you at all?
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Chapatoni
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# Posted: 20 Dec 2008 12:17
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Sounds Like good advice. I think also you need to ensure you have good upline - make a strong connection with someone above you who has achieved some real income and with their help duplicate their actions. This means you need to do your due diligence, not only in the company but the people you will be working with and the methods they use.
Networking is fun when you find a company, product and partners that you are comfortable with. Then go for it and remember it is the "long game" you are in. It is not a quick fix but it is a fix!
To your abundant success
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amytaxs
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2009 10:18 · Edited by: amytaxs
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Ya Chapman I agree You need to have a good upline someone you can see is making it work I'm curios have any of you heard of the Berry Tree I haven't seen any mention of it here
That's an interesting comment rossparker about having more than one MLM going at a time did you start one, get it going , then move on to the next
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Cash Gifting
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# Posted: 20 Jan 2009 17:04
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Yes, the MLM Industry's own statistics put their failure rate at almost 99%! I feel this sorry stat will improve as folks learn that chasing doesn't work but having them chase you does.
Adding value is very important. I give prospects tons of free marketing advice, no fluff...just useful, pertinent tips and stategies that work. Initially I don't even mention my main work at home opportunity in my marketing materials or emails.
I want them to get comfortable with me as I fill their minds with one beneficial marketing technique after another. I hope they feel that I truly care about their success because that is my intention. I'm always open, honest and helpful.
This along with daily marketing plan discipline has grown my list. Of course the money is in the list but it's vitally important that your list be populated with folks who trust you, your advice and recommendations. You gain that trust by being yourself, offering great content to help your list succeed while always educating yourself so you will honestly offer the very best to those looking to succeed in a work at home activity.
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