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Aspire
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 101
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2008 20:06 · Edited by: Aspire
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BillChechel: see if it actually works
Hi Bill,
There is no question as to if the process works or not � the technology has been around for many decades.
From the research I have been doing, Hydrogen was an un-wanted by-product of Chrome Plating. When you pass a high DC current through an electrolyte solution � The positive attached to a soft metal, the negative attached to the metal to be plated and the passing of current through it, you coated the negative metal with components of the positive metal. The by-product (hydrogen) usually escaped as a gas, but Hydrogen molecules sometimes etched itself into the negative metal making a poor plating. (thus the unwanted by product)
Some enterprising people worked out that this gas was lighter than air and started building Dirigibles (air ships).
I remember doing experiments at school 40 years ago using a strip of aluminium and a metal nail using a solution of orange juice as the electrolyte. The nail became coated with the aluminium. (I did not know that I also produced Hydrogen at the time)
If you want to do this yourself to see if it works, grab a couple of stainless steel spoons connected to a car battery, and suspend the spoons in a solution of salt water. You will see the hydrogen bubbles created for yourself. This will be dependant on how close the spoons are together, and the intensity of the electrolyte. DO NOT let the spoons touch each other.
Using good quality surgical grade stainless steel will not allow the metal to flow from the + to the -, but you will get HHO.
The trick with all the plans and units on the market for HHO generators is to get a configuration that uses less power to get more volume of gas. Careful placing of the plates and construction of the unit will yield maximum HHO output.
The next trick is to get a gas management system that allows your engine to use it.
A turbo Charger simply pours more fuel into the cylinder to give you increased power. Feeding HHO gas into the cylinder with petrol will allow for combustion to happen easier (less fuel use), and because you are introducing a clean combustible product to the process, you will get less emissions.
The average HHO generator can use up to 30 amps if you choose to tweak it so high for extra output. The only time you need to worry about excessive power drain is when you have multiple units running at the same time to produce even more gas. Trucks with large banks of HHO generators are advised to get a higher output Alternator to accommodate for the need.
A coil of wire in a jam jar will produce HHO, but probably not in sufficient quantity to make a significant difference to your economy. The vital configuration needs are:
� Total surface area of the plates
� The distance these plates are from each other
� The density and type of the electrolyte used
� The amount of current applied.
Hope this has helped to put peoples minds at ease regarding "If HHO Generators Work"
Regards
Paul
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Aspire
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2008 08:19 · Edited by: Aspire
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Aspire: and suspend the spoons in a solution of salt water
This will also produce chlorine gas and coat the electrodes with sodium - This is used in Salt Water Chlorinators for pools. This is obviously not a good electrolysis solution for HHO production, but it serves as a good test.
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lightner01
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Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 1
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2008 16:48
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search the web for Smack Booster's, this guy has free info and shows how to make it on youtube. He even gives you a parts list with part numbers to order the parts. He learned alot from Stan Meyer ( if you don't know him look him up as well) and Bob Boyce.
Good Luck!
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Glen Lightner
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jjc68
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Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2008 19:31
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I recently got a hold of the water4gas thing. I looked at the emails that they sent me first just to get an idea of what was going on. They were basically saying that you could make your own HHO generator. And the HHO that you do generate is injected through the air intake to help make the gasoline more efficient. If you are thinking that you will run your car strictly on HHO that you will produce with one of these kits you might be a little mislead. Not saying that it isn't possible just not with these kits, in my opinion.
Also, I am pretty sure that hydrogen cars have been around for awhile. One problem is just getting filled up again. The filling stations are just not very abundant. This will change eventually but I think that one reason this hasn't caught on as much is because producing hydrogen from water through electrolysis takes more energy than it can produce (I could be mistaken though).
Aspire is doing a great job on explaining everything and I am looking forward to see what type of numbers he gets. I will eventually build one myself and just test it myself but I am not going to guarantee when that will actually happen.
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Aspire
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2008 06:37
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jjc68: electrolysis takes more energy than it can produce (I could be mistaken though).
The only HHO units to consider are ones that have a variable power control to supply the cell with juice. A balance between the electrolyte solution and variable power delivers different flow rates of HHO.
Some of the better units ready made promote adjusting the power to suit your requirements. Obviously to get more HHO you need more reaction in the cell plates. Increasing the power will do this.
Your car has a bank of fuses, and I am sure that some of them will be 30Amp. Most reliable HHO generators suggest putting a 30A relay and fuse on the system.
A quality system capable of producing 2 to 3 litres per minute has been tested to do so drawing 15A to 20A. Poorer quality systems with un-balanced plate arrays will need more than 20A to produce 1 ltr.
The avreage car can accomodate for 10A to 20A drain without any problems. If it is unable to do this, there may have been an underlying problem with the alternator and it was only a matter of time before it needed replacing.
There are vehicles with banks of HHO generators that require more power, and they accomodate for this with a higher output alternator and larger capacity battery storage.
Heating and power drain are being explored with using a pulsating power supply onto a finely tuned plate array - The result is more HHO with less power use and lower heat generated.
One enterprising person I have been researching has patented a HHO system that uses 1/2A to generate 1 ltr per minute in an ongoing cold electrolyte solution. He is already dealing with the US government supplying units to military vehicles. This is the commercial edge to go into mass production, but I am pretty sure that there will be at least a decade or two of red tape.
Can you imagine the financial drain to the governments of dozens of countries if all of a sudden people everywhere only used 50% of fuel?
Here in Australia the government was contemplating a tax relief of 5 cents per litre. This would marginally reduce the price at the pumps, but it would mean a revenue drop of $2 billion per year to the government. Where do you think they would make up their shortfall????
Delecate grounds with this technology - I honestly feel like I am being held to ransom each time I fill up.
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SA Citizen
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Joined: 14 Aug 2008
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2008 15:44
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Hi bMarley,
If still availabale will you please mail me the instructions. My two sons - 20 and 18 stumbled upon this and want to purchase. They are at the age where they will try anything and believe (and waste hard earned money).
I would like them to study the material first.
Thanking you in advance
email to - [email protected]
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Aspire
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2008 17:42 · Edited by: Aspire
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There have been 9,176 people view this thread at the time of this posting.
Why are there so few people contributing to it?
Are my postings helping anyone?
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ljeb
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# Posted: 14 Aug 2008 19:04
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Laziness. I am not currently building anything so I don't have anything to contribute really. The recent MIT discovery on solar has a nice little tid bit that sounds like it could really help increase the production of HHO. I think they used cobalt and platinum as electrodes.
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Aspire
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2008 18:51 · Edited by: Aspire
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ljeb: The recent MIT discovery on solar has a nice little tid bit that sounds like it could really help increase the production of HHO
Hey! - great info - I googled it and found it fascinating. It is going to be the next phase of HHO evolution. I see a couple of problems.
The way I read it, Yes, you will get more production but it will be in separate streams of bubbles from the different electrodes. Hydrogen from one, and Oxygen from the other. This will give a non constant density of HHO using the present gas collection methods. The gas that you will feed into the air intake will either be H rich or O rich at different times. Without sufficient O getting through your engine will stall ( just like having the choke on all the time)
The cost of Cobalt and Platinum is very restrictive. Remember that Cobalt is a rare element and Platinum is an expensive precious metal. Building electrodes out of these materials will make the project very cost restrictive.
If you then decide to electroplate the Stainless Steel HHO plates with the materials, as soon as you turn on the HHO generator you will in fact be electroplating your negative plates with the coating of your positive plates. This will effectively remove the plating from the positive and deposit it on the negative.
The way I see it, you would need to have two separate generators - A cobaly one, and a Platinum one. Both will need to produce their own gas, and the outputs from each need to be thoroughly mixed to gether in a mixing tank before being fed through the backfire arrestor into the engine.
This presents a problem - You are now storing a supply of Hydrogen in a container within your car and this is dangerous.
I will definately keep my eye on progress with this.
Anyone else wanting to follow this, please also post your findings for us all.
Regards
Paul
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ljeb
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# Posted: 17 Aug 2008 14:14
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I could be wrong as I did not read it that closely, and what I read was a media report, not an actual scientific report. But I think that all they were saying is that the H come off the platinum electrode and the O comes off the cobalt electrode (the platinum is getting a positive, and cobalt negative charge). It works the same way with stainless steel electrodes. The H comes off the electrodes with a positive charge and the O comes off the electrodes with a negative charge. So you would still have the same ratios coming out and in the same container. For the method to have any result, there is always the same ratio of 2H to O.
As far as the cost goes, that is very true. But I think that unless we can get pulse wave modulation (PWM) or some other form of frequency manipulation to work, that cobalt and platinum might be the only choice (for now). Cobalt is trading around $50 a pound and platinum is around $1400 per ounce. The problem would be the platinum. If you need 6 ounces of platinum that is $8400!! At least you should only need it once per vehicle, as the cobalt and platinum are only catalysts and do not get consumed.
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 245
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# Posted: 17 Aug 2008 16:04
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Problem,
With almost all of these electrolysis hydrogen generation systems, they fail to disclose accurate information. I have been running hydrogen for several years, and I know it works, but here is the problem, every single do it yourself or unit for sale does not separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, and this produces Brown's gas which will not work on never ECU/ECM equipped vehicles. Even Stanley Meyer used an old dune buggy VW engine, and it worked, but it is a totally different story with late model vehicles.
If you separate the hydrogen and deliver only hydrogen to air mixture, you can get up to 40% in better MPG, but the momeny you pump the oxygen into your intake, your oxygen sensor will pick this up and send a signal to adjust the fuel to air ratio. Guess what this means? You got it, it will richen up your mixture. You can fool the oxygen sensors, as some have proven, but now you are on thin ice with E.P.A. for altering your emission equipment, a federal crime, so you have to know this before you get yourself in trouble, never mind wasting your time.
It is not easy to fool Mother nature, just as it is not easy to fool these ECU/ECM equipped vehicles. I separate the hydrogen from oxygen and don't have to worry about fooling the oxygen sensors, so if you are going to build a unit, or purchase one, make sure you can separate the oxygen from the hydrogen produced or you will end up spinning your wheels and wasting a lot of money. Hydrogen works, but not with oxygen on late model vehicles.
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Aspire
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# Posted: 18 Aug 2008 09:13 · Edited by: Aspire
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WARRANTIES4LESS: but it is a totally different story with late model vehicles
True - Browns gas is instantly effective on carburettor engines without Oxygen sensors.
On post 1996 vehicles with efi comuterised fuel systems, the O2 sensor on the exhaust manifold determines the difference in O2 output in the exhaust and riches up the mixture to accomodate. - pointless exercise.
To make matters even worse, the MAP sensor is situated on the inlet manifold and measures the O2 before going into the cylinder and again adjusts the fuel flow to the cylinder. (Thus the increasing of fuel delivered because of the decreased oxygen input percentage with the Hydrogen)
What is needed is a system that replaces the signal from the MAP & O2 sensor and tells the computer that more fuel is NOT needed.
Feeding HHO (or fuel catalyst) into the cylinder with a reduced fuel flow allows for a complete burn - The exhaust then has seriously reduced levels of HC, NO, CO, CO2. There will also be around a 80% reduction in Oxygen in the exhaust (thus the computer riching up the fuel to accomodate).
There are MAP & O2 sensor replacement systems. These do not replace the sensors, but send the appropriate signal to the computer to lean up the fuel.
They start at around $100 for O2 units, and more for O2 + MAP units and are available here http://www.myenergyinc.net/index.htm
As far as EPA ruling on using these products, use the feedback links on the web site for more info and make your own mind up. From my evaluation, I am sure the EPA would be happy if exhaust emission checks determined between 70% and 90% reduction in ALL emissions and the majority of the exhaust being water.
I started looking for these ages ago to help with my own products effectiveness.
There are HHO Generators available on the internet that output up to 3 litres per minute and also have a computerised Auto Map & O2 control unit. This is so interesting and worth a look at https://www.hydroxycorp.com/shop/?affillink=HTTP:87084422 There are systems there with and without the MAP & O2 control units.
What I found interesting is that the majority of of HHO systems and plans available, they output upto 1 litre per minute. 3 ltrs per minute will allow for more HHO burn and less petrol.
The type of catalyst used is also very important. Using KOH will give better production with less sediment production as experienced with Baking Soda and Sodium Hydroxide.
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 18 Aug 2008 12:25
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Agreed,
There are companies now addressing these issues which was not the case even a year ago. The issue is most people are being sold an illusion on hydrogen, and not the facts, this was the reason for my post. All these do it yourself kits are near worthless, if not dangerous for some to install if not done correctly.
I am amazed as how many sensor defeat devices are now available, but by the time the average person learns all the ins and outs, they will have wasted a lot of time and money. It is far more easy to become educated first, then you know which units are best for your particular vehicle. Forget all these do it yourself ebooks, they are worthless unless you are dealing with an older model vehicle. If you start with proper system which splits oxygen from hydrogen, then you can save money, time and hassle learning the hard way as I did.
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Aspire
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# Posted: 18 Aug 2008 17:39 · Edited by: Aspire
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WARRANTIES4LESS: There are companies now addressing these issues which was not the case even a year ago
True - Unfortunately there are not enough of these companies to allow people to separate wishful thinking from justifiable fact.They are however starting to emerge. It would be fantastic if different governments promoted the development of these companies, but I think we have firmly established in previous posts why they are not.
WARRANTIES4LESS: All these do it yourself kits are near worthless
Agreed - Usually the process offered is outdated and ineffective. I purchased one initially and was flabbergasted at how complex it was. This is what spurred me on to investigate further. After a considerable time, and bordering on obsessive behaviour I was able to realise that the plates arranged in the correct manner - A variable power supply and the correct electrolysis solution was the main three ingredients needing consideration. The E-book I purchased has 140 pages and did not tell me this.
WARRANTIES4LESS: I am amazed as how many sensor defeat devices are now available, but by the time the average person learns all the ins and outs, they will have wasted a lot of time and money
Once again, right on the money - separating the effective from the non effective is a huge task. Either way, if people wish to use these they should get an Auto Electrician to install them. The manual adjusting units take a considerable amount of trial and error learning to tweak them to the correct settings. The company I listed as a supplier of HHO units in a previous post have an impressive computerised unit that automatically adjusts the MAP + O2 settings.
WARRANTIES4LESS: If you start with proper system which splits oxygen from hydrogen
This interests me. A single reaction chamber produces a mixture of HHO (Browns Gas). With the system you use, how do you collect the separate gasses? In a previous posting there was talk about Platinum + Cobalt plates specifically generating the different gasses. How are you doing this?
Look forward to your response.
I am amazed at how passionate some people are to explore this HHO area. You can spend many hours on YouTube searching different experiments. Some good, and some simply silly. It is with this passion that people have that we will be able to advance this further.
Paul
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 18 Aug 2008 23:46
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Good question,
This interests me. A single reaction chamber produces a mixture of HHO (Browns Gas). With the system you use, how do you collect the separate gasses? In a previous posting there was talk about Platinum + Cobalt plates specifically generating the different gasses. How are you doing this?
Wish I could answer you here, but this aspect is patent pending stage, so I will post it at a later date. Essentially, there is a multi stage collector combined with simple catalyst which splits the two molecules. Only the hydrogen is fed into engine while the oxygen is fed into cabin through fresh air intake depending on vehicle. You need only a fraction of hydrogen when split from oxygen to achieve same increase in MPG and performance, so a smaller resevoir and plate array reduces cost over other larger units, especially when using more expensive coatings such as platinum.
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manudevil20
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2008 04:46
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I am a member of another forum and there are a couple guys in there that have actually done this on their Durango's and Dakota's. You do gain MPG but not as much as it is stated. I am currently installing one on my vehicle. I am not doing exactly what the website tells me as for other people too. I will post the results once i know for sure. But others have noticed 8 MPG more. Which is a big difference for out vehicles
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bernsten69
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2008 17:11
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BS in physics here.
All of your posts prove to me why people have bought into the global warming garbage. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vostok-ice-core-petit.png for why we NEED to increase global temperatures. The idiots fighting global warming will put us into an ice age, and it's not even clear that 'global warming' is man made, despite all of the 'leading scientists' who happen to be paid by the Democratic party or financed by Democrats.
As to this "energy from water" garbage, I will try to Explain why it will NEVER work in simple layman's terms:
1. It takes the SAME energy to make 2H2 + O2 from 2H2O (water) as you GET from burning 2H2 + O2. What that means is that, when you make this 'miraculous super powerful HHO substance' (ie, Hydrogen and Oxygen, that we have known how to make for hundreds of years), you are not getting ANY extra energy because you get the Exact (actually a bit less) amount of energy back that you put into it.
2. The 'efficiency' of the engine has nothing to do with whether this works. You are using the alternator, and hence the gasoline burning engine, to create the 'HHO.' Hence, you have already LOST energy to the engine's inefficiency when you make the 'HHO.' No matter HOW efficient the engine is at burning 'HHO,' it cannot recoupe the loss of energy that occured when you created the electricity to create the HHO. Even if it was 100% efficient at extracting energy from the HHO, you would STILL lose energy because the alternator is not 100% efficient at turning the kinetic energy of the engine into electricity, which is then turned to kinetic energy in the engine via HHO. It doesn't work.
Here is a diagram to explain to the brain washed masses:
Lets start with one Kilo-Joule of energy:
This is the HHO fake energy machine:
1 JK of Gasoline goes into the -> Engine E
Engine E is not efficient at converting Gasoline into Kinetic energy, so you only have, for example 900 Joules of energy Left
Hence:
1KJ Gas. -> Engine -> 900 J Kinetic Energy
Now the alternator, which is ALSO not efficient, uses the Kinetic energy of the Engine to make electricity
900 J KE -> Alternator -> 850 J Electricity
Now lets pretend that the 'Magic" HHO device is 100% efficient at converting Electricity and water into H2 and O2. (a bad assumption)
850 J Electricity -> 'Magic HHO Device' -> 850 J H2 O2.
Now lets pretend that the engine is 100% efficient at burning H2 and O2 and turning it into kinetic energy. (another bad assumption, but necessary for your "magic machine" to work)
850 J H2 O2 -> Engine -> 850 J Kinetic Energy.
WOW! You converted 900 Joules of Kinetic Energy from the engine into 850 Joules of Kinetic Energy in the Engine with your magic 100% efficient device.
In the real world, the conversion is NOT 100%, so you would have much less than 850 Joules of energy left over.
Here it is as a comparison for you numbnuts who still think that this will work:
Magic Device
1KJ Gas. -> Engine -> 900 J Kinetic Energy -> Alternator -> 850 J Electricity -> 'Magic HHO Device' -> 850 J H2 O2 -> Engine -> 850 J Kinetic Energy INTO THE WHEELS
Normal Engine
1KJ -> Engine -> 900 J Kinetic Energy INTO THE WHEELS.
WAKE UP PEOPLE! YOU ARE BRAINWASHED! STOP BELIEVING WHAT PEOPLE TELL YOU AND DO THE RESEARCH YOURSELF.
The only way for this "magical device" to possibly be of ANY benefit is for you to plug in your car into the wall. However, since you can only get a single battery charge and there is NO storage device for H2 or O2, the amount of "coal (or nuclear for those living in the modern age when environmentalists haven't shut down the only viable way of making energy)" powered electricity from your house's electrical plug is minimal. If you installed 40 batteries into your car and charged them up at your house, IF the cost of electricity was lower than gasoline, you MIGHT save a few pennies. Your pollution would be WORSE, because Coal powered plants put out more pollution than your car, and you brainwashed people keep voting for environmentalists who shut down nuclear power.
End Rant.
This device can never work. Stop being brainwashed and believeing what people tell you. Go to the LIBRARY, get a basic Thermodynamics book, read on "the conservation of energy" and you have your answer.
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Aspire
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2008 15:50 · Edited by: Aspire
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bernsten69: This device can never work. Stop being brainwashed and believeing what people tell you.
How can you possibly state this when you have not even attempted to try it for yourself?
The US Government is already using this technology on some of their vehicles, and there is an international community of skilled people freely developing this further. You obviously have not bothered to try and research this. One skilled technician has posted over 120 videos on YouTube with no alterior motive - Just the sharing of information - There are hundreds more (including a scattering of scams and crackpots as well)
There are serious discussion groups in different countries exploring the use of nuclear energy to produce Hydrogen in volume expressly for the use as a 100% fuel source in Vehicles. Honda already has a HHO car coming off their assembly line. 90% of the worlds population can not afford to just jump in and get a new luxury car just so they do not need to use petrol, so the world continues to develop ways to use this technology as a more economical HHO/Petrol hybrid.
It is all good and proper theorising with a tertiary debating skill - Just remember that it wasn't too long ago that scholars of the day proved that if you travelled too far in a sailing ship you would fall off the edge of the earth........
It is working for me with a fuel reduction total of 36%
This thread is proving to be a waste of my time with the only enthusiastic interest being disproving negativity.
I will not be participating in this somewhat "One Sided" discussion thread any more.
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dmitch31
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2008 16:48 · Edited by: dmitch31
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What's funny about all of this is the number of people that think they are so smart telling us all that this can't work. The systems I've seen on the web that seem viable for the average do it yourselfer are the ones that improve gas mileage by adding hydrogen and oxygen to the fuel/air mixture. If you've convinced yourself this isn't possible, then I think you are naive.
Let me explain why this is NOT a closed system... Because you have to keep adding water and gasoline because they keep getting used up! Therefore, NOT a closed system! Fuels are constantly being added. Is that so hard to understand?
And as far as how to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, this is not difficult either. I did it in a science project in gradeschool. It goes like this...
A bowl of water with baking soda. Two glass bottles held upside down, filled with water, the mouths of the bottles under the water so the vacuum doesn't let the water evacuate the bottles. There's an electrode in each bottle. You press the button that applies the battery current to the electrodes. Gas bubbles appear on each of the electrodes and float upwards within each bottle. It was very easy to see in this experiment that one electrode was producing TWICE as much gas as the other one was - HENCE, you've SEPARATED the hydrogen and oxygen.
After continually applying current you could see that one electrode in one bottle was consistently producing more gas thus letting twice the amount of water evacuate from the bottle. PRESTO!
OK, so let's just say that in your car you try to create a similar system and knowing that the electrodes have to be connected by electrolyte there is no way to TOTALLY isolate them from one another - meaning that with agitation there is the potential for them to get slightly mixed --- so you've got a 'little' oxygen mixed in. Big freakin deal! There's already oxygen in your gas/air mixture anyway, but for the most part the two gasses are then 99% separated.
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ljeb
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2008 19:01
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If he does have a "BS" in physics. I would say that he wasted his time and money, and the "BS" would stand for something that smells a little...
His nice little diagram left out a lot of factors. Factors that make this system work!
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Silverstone
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2008 23:56 · Edited by: Silverstone
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Bottom line:
1) Yes, water can be split into hydrogen and oxygen.
2) Energy will be required to do this
3) The Law of Conservation of Energy states that:
the total amount of energy in any isolated system remains constant but cannot be recreated, although it may change forms.
reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
4) What this means is, when you transfer energy from one state to another (for example, from a chemical to electrical phase, or from a mechanical to electrical phase), you will ALWAYS lose some,
as energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but on its journey energy can "lose" some some of its momentum:
For example, a copper wire that gets hot while conducting electricity, gives off HEAT. That's energy that's "lost" as far as the copper wire is concerned, but the energy is actually transmitted as heat.
Another example: A baseball player that swings his bat and smacks the ball out of the park: some of the energy he used to do this was transferred into the sound that resulted from the bat smacking the ball, known as accoustic energy. Friction also absorbed some of that energy.
Hope that helps,
Jaime McCarley
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Aspire
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2008 01:55 · Edited by: Aspire
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IN THE DEBATE OF "DOES HHO HELP REDUCE YOUR FUEL BILL
For the Against - The team of:
bernsten69: BS in physics here
and
Silverstone: The Law of Conservation of Energy states that: the total amount of energy in any isolated system remains constant but cannot be recreated, although it may change forms.
For the Affirmative - The team of:
Aspire: It is working for me with a fuel reduction total of 36%
and
Over 100,000 HHO users around the world
JUST WHICH SIDE WINS ?????
The answer to this question will really surprise you.........
I have just sent off an email for CONCLUSIVE proof that will determine the winner of this debate. As soon as it comes back there will be absolutely no question about it. 
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Silverstone
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2008 01:59
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Let me guess, you sent it to Obama, right?
Jaime McCarley
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Aspire
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2008 06:11
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Silverstone: Let me guess, you sent it to Obama, right?
Wrong......... The Queen
To be specific, the Royal Automobile Club of Queensland
Results back in two days.
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2008 12:02 · Edited by: WARRANTIES4LESS
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Interesting,
So am I to believe my increase in mileage is not real? My alternator is driven off of existing engine power all the time anyway, and with the small amp draw of adding hydrogen generation unit, it is such a small difference in engine drag that it is not measurable.
Yes, I agree, an alternator varies under load, so there is a small cost of adding more load from electrolysis, and some systems draw more than others, so I have seen some which draw over 12 amps, and depending on the car, and the alternator, you could see a slight drop in fuel mileage, but not to the point that would negate the increased MPG when using hydrogen.
So in simple terms, what would be the worst case scenario with the highest level of load on an alternator. All you have to do is ask all the high power stereophiles to get that answer given the power amp requirements. lol Even under maximum alternator load, what would your fuel mileage drop be? .02 MPG, even if you lost a full mile per gallon, how is the world is this going to compute when I gained an extra 9.7 MPG average under all loads. Sorry, the joules do not compute. lol
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CharlesBoose
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2008 12:37
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Gas is taking a big bite out of my income. I have seen this site and I have cars and boats with V8 engines. When I get my bonus check I am going to try this or something like it.
Take care,
Charles
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Homeboy
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Joined: 4 Feb 2008
Posts: 219
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2008 07:54
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dmitch31: And as far as how to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen, this is not difficult either. I did it in a science project in gradeschool. It goes like this...
Lol, I remember that experiment. We also MADE water by fusing hydrogen and oxygen, although the teacher wouldn't let us drink it, lol... (It smelled a bit funny anyway...)
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Aspire
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 101
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2008 08:13 · Edited by: Aspire
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Reports are in � Comparisons drawn � Facts speak for themselves.
I have conducted before and after emissions tests on my vehicle. The HHO generator produced close to 3 litres of HHO per minute at a power drain of 12 amps.
Firstly to the question of power drain � 2 x 60 watt headlights = 120 watts
Using the formula of watts divided by volts equals amps, the headlights alone draw 10 amps. It is obvious that my HHO generator draws no more power than a pair of good driving fog lights.
My HHO generator is producing close on 3 litres of gas per minute. Since HHO is 2 parts Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen, my test results were based on applying 2 litres of hydrogen per minute to the air intake of the engine.
Emission Results:
Carbon Monoxide (CO) before 0.39% vol � After 0.01% vol.
Hydrocarbons (HC) before 105 ppm (parts per million) � After 8 ppm
Nitrogen Monoxide (NO) before 111 ppm � After 12 ppm
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) before13.66% vol � After 15.08% vol
Oxygen (O2) before 0.87% vol � After 1.135 vol
These are tremendous results and reinforce the need to do something like this for the benefit of the environment alone.
Analysing the results, the CO + NO results are directly comparable to the reductions in HC + O2 and the increase in CO2
It is obvious that applying 2 litres of Hydrogen and 1 litre of Oxygen per minute have resulted in a more complete fuel burn thus the reduction in HC (hydrocarbons or unburned fuel)
Because there is a more complete fuel burn, the combustion has nearly eliminated the CO + NO. This is reinforced with the marginal increase on CO2 and the decreased Oxygen. Remember that the before testing used regular air and the after testing used pure oxygen as well as air. (without O2, nothing will burn)
Conclusion 1 � The HHO mix promoted a near complete fuel burn in the cylinder � The hydrogen did not increase the power of the engine, it simply was a catalyst to allow all the petrol to be ignited and turned into mechanical energy to turn the crankshaft.
Conclusion 2 - Though there is a reduction of nearly 100 ppm in Hydrocarbons, this alone would not be sufficient for my resulting increase in power and decrease in fuel use. With the increased flashpoint of the fuel with the Hydrogen and O2, all the fuel is burning within the cylinder and not continuing to burn as it enters the exhaust system.
Observation 1 � Initially there was no results using HHO � It was necessary to use an Oxygen Sensor bypass unit. The O2 sensor tells the EFI to rich up the mixture if there was a low O2 level in the exhaust. The aim was to reduce the fuel use not increase it. The O2 bypass unit sends a false signal to the EFI computer to make it think the factory preset O2 levels were there.
Observation 2 - Vehicles with simple carburetors pre 1995 will not have an O2 sensor and therefore have no need for a bypass unit.
Observation 3 � It was necessary to advance the timing by 8 degrees. The reason for this is that the Hydrogen + O2 with the petrol mix tended to reach full combustion the moment the spark plug was energised. Normally it takes a little time due to the fact that petrol burns slower than HO and the piston would be in the start of its down thrust. With HO and the increased combustibility of the HO and fuel mix, full combustion occurred before the piston reached the beginning of its downward thrust. Caution - Do this in one or two degree incriments to guage effectiveness - Advancing the timing too much will cause a backfire that will flash back to your Hydrogen generator - make sure you have a backfire arrestor installed.
These test results along with the conclusions and observations present irrefutable proof of the effectiveness of a HHO generator to reduce fuel use in a car.
I have a 38% reduction at the moment, now I am exploring bumping this up to 50% saving.
I entered this forum posting as a Newbie HHO user. Now that I have researched it, there is a lot more worth knowing if you want to do something for yourself.
Recommendation � Stay away from DIY plans � find someone on the web offering complete systems with a track record of success. What you save on your fuel will more than pay for a quality reputable system.
It is not just a simple matter of plugging a system in, there are many other issues to take into consideration. This is not the right place to discuss them. Anyone genuinely interested in sharing my findings please PM me (that's personal message me to the newbies � you need to register with this forum to do this)
This Is The Bottom Line- This Is The Bottom Line - This Is The Bottom Line
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WARRANTIES4LESS
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Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 245
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2008 08:52
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Congrats,
With reduction in emissions alone. this should be enough reason to convert, even if alternator drag reduced fuel consumption by a half of percent or so. lol
Glad you mentioned timing, for many cars these days cannot be adjusted like the old days, computer controls are taking over on newer models, so out of curiosity, what kind of vehicle did you convert, I know Aussie vehicle selection is different than in states, but it may help more to understand all the variables there are when converting to hydrogen assist systems.
Thanks, Mike
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Aspire
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Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Posts: 101
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2008 09:01
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WARRANTIES4LESS: what kind of vehicle did you convert
Hi Mike,
My car is a 3800cc V6 1998 Holden Statesman. I took the car to an Auto Electrician and do not know how he adjusted the timing.
Though I installed the system myself, I recommend that people get a good Mechanic or Auto Electrician to do it. It is worth the little extra cost to do it right.
Regards
Paul
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