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asebf
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Joined: 11 Sep 2007
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 13:57
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I see this a lot. I am confident that English is a 2nd language to a lot of people. This must be why these are so intermingled. And of course spell check will not catch it.
petty on my part.
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Bob
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 14:20
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Personally, I don't think that is so petty.
How you appear to people is very important, that's why we dress for success.
If you appear to be uneducated, I don't think that will help in the corporate world, or the worldwide market (internet).
There IS a lot of 'dumbing down' in todays society, and there is a time and place for slang, vernacular, and sub standard English, but that has to come naturally, and still only appeals to a limited group of people.
High brow language with lots of multi-syllable words can also alienate.
English is not an simple or easy language to master and mistakes are common, even among the most articulate.
But obvious mistakes and poor grammar devalue what you are selling and undermine your credibility.
At least that's what I feel when I have to struggle to understand
common use language that should be easily understandable to a wide range of people.
I am quickly turned off, feeling that this person hasn't taken the time to make a decent presentation. I can only assume what he or she is selling is also substandard.
If someone has trouble with writing for ANY reason, they should seek the counsel of a person who is fairly competent with the language you are using - give a college kid a job!
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southbank63
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 14:50
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My only excuse at dead bad granmar..grammer..gramar ... is that I went to a comprehensive school in the uk..in the 70's.. they stopped teaching spelling, maths etc we had to 'experience' and 'feel' things.. .. so cant spell  but there is more to life..me thinks! 
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asebf
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 14:52
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I agree 100% - but it is so common - I thought I was just being a bit petty. I see these mistakes used by people who are saying they are very successful etc.
Sad.
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Bob
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southbank63
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 14:56
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No its not sad
I'm just envious of those who understood their 'First Aid inEnglish' and finished all the 'Nip and Fluff' and 'Janet and John' books.. not to forget 'Dick and Dora!' (think you probably have to be british to get the references..but thanks asebf for taking me down memory lane...
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asebf
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 15:02
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South
It was Dick & Jane here on the west side of the pond.
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Bob
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TheGuild
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 144
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 16:58
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Well, I admit I also respond better to perfect gramar and spelling. (Does 'gramar have two m's or one? And is there an apostrophe between 'm' and 's' in 'm's?' And do you put the '?' before or after the last apostrophe in 'm's?' (?) And is that how you spell apostrophe?) I can drive myself crazy with having to always be syntaxically correct. (Is that a word? More importantly, is it even applicable to the idea I wanted to convey there?) I am my own worst critic, as you can see. (Is there really a 't' on the end of 'worst?' Doh! There's that '?' question of proper placement again. And shouldn't 'as you can see' be placed in from of the sentence, "I am my own worst critic" instead of at the end of it?) Sheesh. It's a wonder I ever get a sentence written and completed!
Rob
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TheGuild
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 17:05
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That being said, someone who works online could have the best suit and tie on and the best of writing skills. But if their business oportunity is a scam, those things won't help them much.
Rob
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TheGuild
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 17:08
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Success in network marketing does NOT depend on personal perfection. If it did, nobody would succeed because nobody's perfect. And yes it's very petty of people to be so petty. Personally, I wouldn't like to work with someone as petty as that!
Rob
How do you like me now?
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 17:18
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Sounds like you do a lot of good writing! I didn't have a problem reading all that convoluted convolutions...
I think the problem is the obvious grammar problems though. Spell check, dictionary and now, thesaurus' on computers mean certain problems just shouldn't be!
Then, a simple proofreading, by the writer, and/or his distinguished counsel should eliminate problems that adversely affect your credibility.
I mean, bad grammar or mistakes missed on an email, or forum post, is one thing. But an advertisement? I wouldn't risk losing a customer over it.
Sorry, but my online dictionary says there's no such word as syntaxically!
But it came in handy for me trying to spell 'thesaurus'!
Also, I found out that 'convolution' IS a word (after I used it!).
And I KNOW I wouldn't be able to type worth a damn without word processing software (thank goodness for that delete key!).
BETTER LIVING WITH TECHNOLOGY!!!
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 17:27
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Quoting: TheGuild That being said, someone who works online could have the best suit and tie on and the best of writing skills. But if their business oportunity is a scam, those things won't help them much.
Hmmm...
If you were scamming, wouldn't you be most effective, wearing your best attire, and/or using your best language skills?
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 17:31
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Quoting: TheGuild Success in network marketing does NOT depend on personal perfection. If it did, nobody would succeed because nobody's perfect. And yes it's very petty of people to be so petty. Personally, I wouldn't like to work with someone as petty as that! Rob How do you like me now?
Still like you Rob - I have no reason to hate you!
I don't think we are talking about being perfect. Just making a good impression. You know, looking and sounding your best.
If you are in doubt, or want to be sure, ask someone who knows more than you, even if they TOO are not perfect!
That's what my imperfect ass would do.
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TheGuild
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 17:55
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Hello TJ,
I accept the belief good grammar and spelling are highly important, effective and more persuasive than poor grammar and spelling. If one's livelihood depends on perfect writing skills, then so be it. Perception is everything in the art of persuasion and people are, indeed, quite fickle creatures when it comes to most things in life. And so, it would appear we must do what is necessary in order to win them over to our viewpoints if we desire to succeed in the business world -- including dress well and tastefully. If good grammar and spelling are the "honey" to attract customers and influence their buying decisions, then it would seem it's critical to hone our writing skills.
One last thing though: Some are of the opinion that deliberately letting a few errors slip into our sales pages have a strangely positive psychological effect on readers. I believe that's because it puts them at ease and subtly let's them know the author is human, too, putting him or her on a more equal footing which many average people can better relate to.
Something to think about.
Your friend,
Rob
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 18:09
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Quoting: TheGuild One last thing though: Some are of the opinion that deliberately letting a few errors slip into our sales pages have a strangely positive psychological effect on readers. I believe that's because it puts them at ease and subtly let's them know the author is human, too, putting him or her on a more equal footing which many average people can better relate to. Something to think about.
True.
That goal, of relating to average people, is what I meant by refraining from the use of hi-brow language.
Personally, I think I make enough mistakes accidentally, without doing so purposefully!
But good writing or speaking I am told, takes into account the audience you want to reach, and how you want to impress them. I'd be a little more hi-brow, if I thought the audience was that way, if I thought that type of presentation would be most effective.
And isn't effectiveness the bottom line here?
Slang, vernacular, and poor grammar can be effective sometimes too!
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TheGuild
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 18:33
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Yes, absolutely. That's why it's essential for anyone who aims at persuading others to learn how to communicate effectively with the four different colored personality types. Our mentor taught us that art. When speaking or writing to a green, for instance, it's important to eliminate all traces of hype and excitement from our communication. Greens are easily turned off by that. They are the sticklers for detail. They want all the information they can get about a thing, and they then proceed to systematically analyse everything sometimes to death. They arrive at decisions at a painfully slow rate of progress. But once they have decided on something, they will NEVER quit. I love greens. I rely on a few of them to help me sort through the tedious details of how to figure something out. I'm a blue. I'm all about fun, fun, fun. If it's not fun, I probably won't do it. I'd be very poor on follow through if I weren't so red, too. Reds are the highly motivated, driven-to-succeed people. We're all a mixture of these colors but we tend to have one predominant one. My wife is a yellow. They are very loving and nurturing people. They'll give you the shirts off their backs. But there's a trick to identifying peoples' colors and knowing that trick will help you know how to communicate with that person in his or her own language style in under 5 minutes.
Rob
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asebf
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 18:43
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OK - good replies all. How do I choose an attorney? I interviewed one in a small town in N. CA who was just getting started, and had a heater on his meager desk warming his hands in a rented upstairs room that looked like it belonged in a 1920 era movie. I did not hire him. He may well have been the best divorce attorney in all of Sonoma County. But I was not impressed.
How do I choose a doctor? I'm sure you get the point. So would I send you money and want to do business with you if you write in an uneducated manner - when it is so easy to check for spelling and grammar errors?
I believe people like to do business with successful people. When all I have to look at is how you write - I think that making a good impression could be important.
In addition, in this medium, English may well be not the first language of your client. Using bad grammar can only confuse them. Hell it confuses me.
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Bob
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 19:21
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Quoting: TheGuild When speaking or writing to a green, for instance, it's important to eliminate all traces of hype and excitement from our communication. Greens are easily turned off by that. They are the sticklers for detail. They want all the information they can get about a thing, and they then proceed to systematically analyse everything sometimes to death. They arrive at decisions at a painfully slow rate of progress. But once they have decided on something, they will NEVER quit. I love greens. I rely on a few of them to help me sort through the tedious details of how to figure something out. I
I am DEFINITELY green Rob. I hate the ad hype. Just give me all the details and tell me what the bottom line is!
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 19:27
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I don't know if my post made it Bob (I tried to answer both you and Rob at the same time), but I'd probably go with that lawyer you rejected, if I thought he was hungry and/or aggressive, and that I'd be an important client to him.
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 19:33
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Quoting: asebf How do I choose a doctor? I'm sure you get the point. So would I send you money and want to do business with you if you write in an uneducated manner - when it is so easy to check for spelling and grammar errors?
But I see what you are getting at here. Good communication skills
(like your school teachers told you!).
I'd expect that doctor or lawyer to have a competent secretary though!
That's my take on this. There are lots of skilled professionals, from all over the globe. They might not be competent in the language of their clients, but they should know enough to consult someone who is.
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asebf
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 20:04
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Quoting: TJamMoneyMan That's my take on this. There are lots of skilled professionals, from all over the globe. They might not be competent in the language of their clients, but they should know enough to consult someone who is.
.........
Good point. I have two sons is totally different professions. One is a producer of TV commercials. The other graduated med school 16 months ago.
Obviously the producer MUST watch all communication as he interacts directly with people. The medicine man never communicates directly outside of one on one patient visits.
However, I contend that in this medium we must hold ourselves to a higher standard in communication skills.
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Bob
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 20:24
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Quoting: asebf Obviously the producer MUST watch all communication as he interacts directly with people. The medicine man never communicates directly outside of one on one patient visits.
Well, not to quibble but, if Mr Medicine Man comes up with a new drug, or surgery technique, or a cure for some terrible disease, he could make millions no?
BUT, he'll need to be able to write a good article about it, make a speech, or convince an investor first. How? With good communication skills!
Everybody needs them, even a hot dog vendor.
Even a Pimp, has to con his hoe, with sweet seductive language!
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TheGuild
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 20:40
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TJ,
An important sidebar to this is the fact that greens make up about 35% of the population. If our adcopy hypes things up even slightly, we've just alienated a fairly large percentage of people.
Added to this is the fact that another 35% of the population is yellowwho hate to be sold. Don't talk to them about how much money they can make with your opportunity. They don't give a darn. They want to know how they can HELP others with their opportunity. So talk about that.
If your ad is flashy hype with lots of big dollar signs and fancy cars and full of BIG MONEY references, then you've just lost about 70% of the people! Conclusion: we'd better learn how to become green when we speak with greens; and how to become yellow when we speak with a yellow.
But as I mentioned earlier, there's a logical trick to identifying peoples' personality types. Wouldn't you love to know? Allow me some FUN here, please. Remember: blues just wanna have fun!
Granted, blues make up only 15% of the population but, even so, why blow us off? We're great with people and we can build HUGE networks for greens and yellows to follow up with and feed!
Rob
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 22:53
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Quoting: TheGuild But as I mentioned earlier, there's a logical trick to identifying peoples' personality types. Wouldn't you love to know?
Ok, what's the trick?
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happywife
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2007 23:07 � Edited by: happywife
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Although my own grammar can get sloppy on the occasions when I am in a rush, I do respond better to properly written copy.
I just sat and read this whole thread and don't have anything else to add except for 
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TheGuild
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2007 00:10
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TJ,
If you don't mind me emailing you, I'll gladly share it.
Rob
[email protected]
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asebf
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2007 22:18
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Quoting: TJamMoneyMan Well, not to quibble but, if Mr Medicine Man comes up with a new drug, or surgery technique, or a cure for some terrible disease, he could make millions no? BUT, he'll need to be able to write a good article about it, make a speech, or convince an investor first. How? With good communication skills!
.......
You are right. Teachers everyday in class. Preachers on Sundays. All of us who interact with others need to be able to communicate in a clear way. My medicine man I may have been a bit hard on - he really is not bad - but all of us can improve these skills.
If I could sell my wife more often on the things I want to do - I'd be a happy camper.
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Bob
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2007 23:39
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Quoting: asebf but all of us can improve these skills.
Especially some of the users in this forum.
I mean goodness, doesn't anyone proofread at least ONE time?
Not this topic so much but throughout the entire forum.
These folks don't seem to realize how much they devalue the systems they are promoting with their ABUSE of the English language.
I don't claim to be the best, but come ON forum members, at least PROOFREAD!!!
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2007 23:40
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Quoting: TheGuild If you don't mind me emailing you, I'll gladly share it.
Write on:
[email protected]
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TheGuild
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2007 23:48
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TJ,
Okay. You may want to add [email protected] to your safe list. I'll find what I want to send you and you'll likely get it in your inbox tonight or tomorrow. I'm from Canada, so I'll still be working. You, on the other hand, assuming you live in the States, will hopefully be enjoying yourself and having a HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
Rob
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TJamMoneyMan
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# Posted: 21 Nov 2007 23:52
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You're going to have to explain this one.
What is a safelist?
I've heard the term, but I don't know what that is about yet.
And, why would I want to do this?
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